Ep 009 Paul Swift

Narrator: 0:10

Welcome to the Athletes in Motion Podcast From Race to Recovery. With your hosts, Tom Regal, and Kenny Bailey.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 0:28

Hey, Tom, how are you?

Tom Regal: 0:30

I'm great. Kenny, how are you?

Kenny Bailey<br>: 0:31

I am hanging out,

Tom Regal: 0:32

hanging out? Well, great, because we've got a fantastic guest today in Paul Swift. We're really, really happy to have Paul on this on this podcast today. So, but before we get to Paul, I've got a quick couple shout outs to some folks in the UK that are listening to podcast, we're uper excited to have you istening, hope you're getting a ot out of it, and also in ermany. So thank you all. And ive us some ratings, some five tars would be great. If we on't deserve five stars, let us now why. We'd love to learn and et better. And the five stars f the algorithms help find eople. It doesn't make much ense. But anyway, it helps eople find us. So in the search lgorithm set all kind of works nd then we can get through and tuff like that. So anyway, Paul Tom, you forgot one thing.....that's War damn Eagle wift is here today. Thank you, aul, for joining us. You're our irst video podcast. So this ill go up audio and video on ur YouTube channel. So we're uper excited to have Paul here. aul is an amazing eight time ational champion in cycling for he US. He's 15 years on the US ycling team is a master nnovator in the bike fit world nd it's someone I've learned a on from. I first met Paul back n probably four or so years ago t Dan Empfield's. We call it a raining camp or it's a five day ntensive bite bite fit learning ession. And Paul was one of the nstructors there and they just lew our minds. The amount of etail I mean, we spent probably 2-14 hours a day just fitting ikes and talking about fitting ikes and doing stuff and Paul s as a product designer on top f all of his great cycling xploits as you probably know he Look and the SPD, Trio style pedals he's he's designed those cleat wedges, adjustable saddles, stems, the Lemond Wha is it the Lemond Rev Master bi e fitness bike, was also product designer on that. So he's he's one of the lead, you know, bike fit innovators of our time, which is and literally he's written a book on the foot and cleat pedal interface. And when I say literally, he's literally written. I have the book, read t is book all the time. So as he founder, also of Bike it Systems, so I mean, he's the uy Paul, I'm so happy to have ou on here. We're trying not to geek out too much on on this ut yeah, really come to have..... there. So.......

Paul Swift: 3:12

I did go to Auburn University.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 3:13

There you go. My daughter's in graduate school there. So you know......

Paul Swift: 3:16

Very cool. I'm love Auburn. I love the South man in the south.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 3:19

There you go man.

Tom Regal: 3:20

outstanding.

Paul Swift: 3:22

So I did a lot of bike riding around there man out and it was an A Wow, talk about like, rural. You know, I know I'm riding past houses where the floors are probably dirt. The names I was called and the things that I encountered and but I loved it. It was awesome.

Tom Regal: 3:39

Nice. Very cool. Well, glad to have you on. So tell us. I mean, what what I mean, obviously, you got some speed. You definitely earned the nickname Swifty. So from the track cycling to bike fitting, what was was there a need? Was there you know, something came up where you said, Hey, we can fix something I know you like to tinker. I mean, anyway, Did anyone see this coming? years ago?

Paul Swift: 4:04

No, not at all. And you asked a great question. I don't know if anyone's ever quite asked it that way before. It was myself. Really. And and a few other peers have kind of met in the industry like I was messed up. And I had to figure it out for myself. I have. I don't know actually what I am today, like literally, but I had a leg length difference of it. It changed over the years, but it was a centimeter.

Tom Regal: 4:29

Wow.

Paul Swift: 4:29

And when you start competing at a higher and higher level, that centimeter was a big difference. And it was that sort of quest to how do I address that there wasn't anyone to go to. I mean, you kind of went and dabbled around and you pulled something here and you put something there and you try to put it together. And that was kind of my beginning and then I left home in high school to live and train at the Olympic Training Center when it was 19..... might have been in 1982 could have been early 83. But it was that winter and I'm in the back of the building at the Olympic Training Center with Eddie B's there who, by the way passed the other day. So rest in peace with COVID. Dr. Ed Burke, the late Dr. Ed Burke was there but the original not Christian era, but Bill Pharaoh who invented the Fit Kit, who really is the guy that, you know, opened up the world to bike fitting, you know, I kind of like to say it's Dr. J and basketball, then they had Michael Jordan that like took it a whole nother level. Yeah, you know, I wasn't the first guy but I hopefully I took it a whole nother level, but he came to the olympic training center and I was one of the athletes they kept kind of like going like, why it looks different. On one side, it looks different on this side, they didn't really have something to do that or address that it was just their minds of looking and observing. And he had a photograph of Bill Pharoh on I've been I've asked the owner of Fit Kit gets it out. I want to get this photo, I guess it still exists. Think about this is 82 is a long time ago. But it was a photo of people standing next to each other, side by side, shoulders, not just side by side, shoulders, shoulder, everyone was a different height. Okay, was men, women, children different, You know, some are heavier, some are lighter. But every single person in the photo had the same length inseam. And I don't know what it was that just stuck in me that there's something there? Like, what does that mean? What is anyway? So it was my question. You know, I built up my first pair of shoes. probably haven't any here. Right, I don't. But I built up my first pair of shoes. Look like Frankenstein, shoes that I still have today.

Tom Regal: 6:35

Nice.

Paul Swift: 6:36

From the 80s

Kenny Bailey<br>: 6:37

Wow.....

Paul Swift: 6:38

to address my leg length difference. And I learned a lot about how it has to clip in why it has to be extended out the front. I mean, a lot of little things that like, by the time I made a product, it was kind of I don't wanna say it was seamless. But it was, it worked. I figured a lot of kinks and wrinkles along the way.

Tom Regal: 6:56

There was a definite need. I mean, you had r&d was on you to figure out like someone else must have this problem. Right?

Paul Swift: 7:03

Well, I think it was, I think it was that, you know that that got me into this. I mean, my mother used to be because I was in March summer marching band listening, he had to hem your pants, like a perfect level to touch the laces and like, you know, measure one side doing that didn't work. And I'm like screaming at me like, Am I like am I'm standing wrong. And this and then all the frustrations? And is this great? You know, before my mother passed or something, we talked about how that life thing. And that's what I think about cycling in life, you know, that life thing that frustration? We could look back at it later and go oh, you know, this is why, but it makes sense. And sorry about that. And, and cycling has helped me flush through so many things like that. So

Tom Regal: 7:42

nice.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 7:43

Paul, when you when you started looking at bike fitting, what was the response from the bike shops on this one? Because most of the bikes are like, you know, you lift it up on your inseam. It's good enough. I mean, did you? Was it harder for the bike? Because they know a little bit was it more difficult for those guys to get on board or more difficult for the individual, if you will.

Paul Swift: 8:02

Maybe I should just share a story. I'll say the name of the shop is Bike Doctor on the East coast. And this was in the 90s. And I called him up and said, you know, it's bike fitting and the guy's like, I mean, he used some choice words, he told me where to go, there's no room for this. This is crazy. This is stupid me spent an hour and I was lying, because I knew it take more than an hour. But I said it took two hours, I was no way gonna be able to get it in the shop in the 90s. And you know, a lot of people were just, this is stupid. It's crazy. We don't need this. You know how we're doing it today. And I want to say, six years ago, five years ago, I was in the back of his shop. And he has one of the absolute nicest bike fitting facilities in the world. So here's the conversation that went to like basically telling me off. And I mean, he used some words to tell me off. And this is the part I didn't like about retail because I wanted to tell them off back. But I didn't, I took it. And then years later here I was in the back of a shop teaching what I you know, was loved to teach. And so oh my gosh, this world is on one hand has come so far. And the other hand we've barely moved. So

Kenny Bailey<br>: 9:13

what what is it about it specifically that they were they afraid that it was just nonsense waste of time? Was it you're taking away from the sell? Or what was it specifically that was causing that sort of angst? Like you don't know, we might have just as much as you did?

Paul Swift: 9:28

I don't know.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 9:28

Was it a pride thing?

Paul Swift: 9:30

I don't know if there was a specific. I think it was probably a combination of a lot of things, you know, like new, being new, you know, new sometimes it's just a challenge in general. Yeah, a different challenge in general. It was a total mindset change for the bike shop like, like you because there are a lot of shops that sort of attempted it was sort of a half assed things didn't work at all. And take in the mindset and go and look I'm going to put some time towards and I'm dedicated towards it. I'm gonna put this you know effort to it was a big jump, it was a big shift. And, and to pay for that, too, like, what are we kidding me? I mean, I'm just like call this the iometer. You know? So I think I don't think there could be one thing on that I think you've touched on some of them, it was a lot of things. And then it was the slow, like, so there was Fit Kit that kind of introduced it, which helped some, but we really took it another level. So I give Fit Kit a lot of credit, you know, slowly one at a time doing it getting the word out. And because then too, it was people got into bike, Oh, it's so terrible, they quit almost right away, or people got on the bike that loved it, like, literally probably, in the 90s was easily easily if I saw nine out of 10 people easily, it's probably 10 out of 10 they only came or found me because they love cycling and hurt really bad. Whereas today, I don't know what the numbers are. But it's a shift that some people, hey, I'm gonna get a bike, I think I should get a bike fit. Or hey, I want to get checked up I want to that's a different minds shift that took that's taken us years to even get to just that. You know, that wasn't easy. So I think it was a combination of a lot of things in the changing of time and the technologies and how we communicate and just so on so forth.

Tom Regal: 11:21

Did you see it more of educating the general population? As opposed to the bike shops? Like you're trying to convince the bike shops to add another service? But would you know, is it easier or didn't make more of a difference to educate the general person first person to know, I mean, when I opened my shop back up after closing for COVID, last year, with all the people buying bikes, I had a dozen people right off the bat brand new customers, they bought a bike they'd ridden for a month, and they knew they needed to get a fit. Yeah, even if they weren't feeling pain or discomfort. They knew the bike shop would set them right. You know, get them in the ballpark, but they knew they knew they needed to find a bike fitter. Yeah. And a couple of them were way off. And a couple of where it was just there was a little minor tweaks and get some stuff going. But it was like they knew at that point. So I mean, that's a huge testament to to the consumer demanding it.

Paul Swift: 12:16

Yeah, it's I always love the consumer, like I love working one on one with a person and sharing my passion and getting to know them and learn them. And I've met friends that way. Because what First of all, everybody who rides a bike is my friend, and your friend. And, you know, we're all in this sort of like group together that makes us something special connected together. And we have this affinity for cycling. And so I've never let go of that. My frustration for the many years was how do I reach that more? How does my sort of passion and, and you know, reach that end consumer? Well, it was challenging, particularly in the 90s and early 2000s. Because communication was very different. And it was so new and scratching the surface. So I really targeted the bike shop, and it was like b2b be the business to help the business build. So my efforts were tremendous on that part, like and even today, I still don't necessarily do a lot of one on one bike fits, just to do more education, you know, some guy who was formerly worked with like 2000 people and blah, blah, blah, I'm like well I've educated over 2000 people, you know, some people 2000 that's a lot of bike fits. I've worked with over 2000 fitters, you know, and you think then collectively, what they've done if there's a few of them have done 2000 fits, I mean, you know, we're in the 100,000s of people that we've reached, you know, I don't, my product is certainly in the millions as far as when it's reached, but like, it's kind of mind blowing to think about that. So, but today's world, you know, it changes you know, I designed the Rev Master and, and, and at the time I did that product there was there was spinning, and there was only like three or four bikes in the industry and the way they taught the way information was disseminated. So for me at that point, it was very easy to pick on. I can improve this, this and this, and this, I'm going to make it better. And we kind of blew that up. But it's a different world. I couldn't take that same approach today. I couldn't take that same approach today and then take on Peloton. So, and then there was I've always believed indoor cycling was part of our future. Always. I put a program together many, many, many years ago where I wanted to put the bike shop up in the gym, particularly being from the north of Wisconsin, where in the winter, we would have these winter training sessions on rollers because it was cold as shit out and like you had to go somewhere where a group of people, well, that was kind of early spinning in a way, right. But I thought, well, maybe we could take advantage of these clubs in the space. You know, maybe we could promote something. Well, that never happened with the people I was working with. But it'd be a different approach again today on that. So then we have the world I think of what we're doing right now. Like I've sat down. I'm in Colorado and a buddy of mine, Josh Wiggly, and we see on Facebook, there's this horrible crash in Florida. And it's like, he's like, that's a ride I do. Oh my god, I know this person, this person, this person. Think about that intimate connection that 10 years ago, we didn't really have. 20 years ago, we certainly didn't have it at all. You may have heard about it. You may never even heard about the crash. And so, I think, you know, I can't tell how many people I mean, I'm 55 now like, you know, you're not riding a bike outside anymore The wife will say or whoever. I mean, I feel so much better on trails and stuff now and I've ridden a bike forever so I thought there was a shift that was going to come who knew it was gonna come this big? No way I had no idea that and Peloton has to get credit for that spinning was certainly in the right place in the right deal to do some work with spinning, I license some products to them. They kind of let it go. They let Peloton come in and take over. But there are attempts of that too. Like you think about ebikes right? Do you remember the first e bike you saw? I mean, look at Lee Iococa, how much money did you put into an ebike? Yeah, you see his ebike today? No, so there were companies like his own he's only raised millions of dollars and I was a fit athlete then and I'd done some of the same stuff like peloton is doing and I was teaching these classes and it was all online. You got to do it, but it didn't go. So timing, technology, you know, and then COVID could not have been I probably more perfect for a Peloton, you know. And now you got the groups and the forums and people are getting that Cycling is pretty cool. You know, you got a fun, exciting instructor. I mean, gosh, first time I took a spin class, I was like who would want to do that because my introduction when I lived in Olympic Training Center in 1982, 1983 and 1984 was a roomful of stationary bikes instead of one I actually made the copy that but each one had a bucket next to it. And I quickly learned what that bucket was for. And if you had an afternoon workout, one o'clock, two o'clock, three o'clock, you kind of didn't eat lunch because it came up in the bucket. I would want to do this. Well, thank god the world made it really a lot more fun, enjoyable. I mean, we like you and I probably got a song I got hardcore about it. But the only people have just you know, fitness and they've enjoyed and they got a camaraderie and somehow they've even though we're not in the same room, they've developed that and, and so there's a lot going on here a lot, a lot is being unpacked.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 17:05

So when it comes to you know, obviously the explosion in indoor cycling, because of COVID and Peloton, you know, at the right time, when it comes. For me, the obvious thing is a bike fit when you buy a road bike or you buy a mountain bike, you know, okay, look at a bike fit. The good news is there's a lot of people that are thinking the same thing. What are the challenges when it comes to those sort of indoor Peloton fits because I don't think that's an obvious thing. The you got this huge monitor, you got the handlebars right there, your your level of variability or getting that in the right zone is there. And then if you try to go out on the road after that, like I'm a training, like you said, you're training indoors for a while and an indoor trainer, and then suddenly you get on your bike outside? What are those challenges that you see people trying to try to solve?

Paul Swift: 17:53

Well, you know, that's the, we're in the discovery phase, I think of that. And because there are people doing it, and I've done it, and you know, I've been trying to collect and gather information, how to better do it, how to reach them. And I think we have to we can't just forget and go Peloton and you know, in our industry have gotten Zwift and we got Wahoo, and things like that have also grown our sort of core cycling group on the indoor cycling side, I'm thinking how much Zwift raised the other day, holy cow, hundreds of millions of dollars. So I've just always wondered what they're gonna do with that money. You know, maybe I can find a little niche in there. You know, it's amazing that like, first of all, bike fitting is kind of intimate. And you know, you're with the person for a couple hours within their space, you know what I mean? And so that's why I try to help fitters like you got to put something about you on your website, you got to talk about where you're from now, you just brought up the Auburn thing, which is why you want to say maybe we went to school, because then somebody would come in and go, you know, hey, my kid went to school there, boom, we got an immediate connection. That's part of our job as a business person, a facilitator trying to relate to somebody. So you know, the technology, look what we're doing right now, we just have a person on the bike, and we go through it. The challenge then is though, some of these people aren't necessarily so savvy with tools.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 19:14

I see,

Paul Swift: 19:14

That's a big challenge. And so I've put a pretty big effort on that. Probably the only one that's done that where I don't know if you've ever been on the receiving end of my bike fit tips, like somebody can say something. And I mean, you could probably ask me 100 questions. I probably have 85 of those questions already answered in a tip. And if not, I can quickly gather mix match boom and answer in 5 or 10 minutes. Most questions on the planet some are like you know, can't that is what we got to see more. So I've been putting together some videos and you mentioned one and some things on how to and I'm the only one, maybe not the only one. I know that I do too. There's no such thing as once and done. You got to like you have some maybe send him a few things and then do it again. So I think that part is missing big time. I think there's some people this is what bothers me, I think there's some people being taken advantage of, they pay up to 150 bucks for 45 minutes. And I hear them spending time doing planks on the floor and there's and I'm like wait a minute, if you're actually doing a bike fit, and you got time for that, you're not fulfilling your bike fit. There's something you're missing here. But facilitating and helping, and I have a lot of tips, like, here's a four millimeter X key button long for you. And it's hard in your hand. But you know, if you have a multi tool, you can get more leverage on it, you know? Or if you have, you know, a big T wrench, you know, how much leverage can you get on it. And there's a lot of time that needs to be spent on that yet and wrinkling out so that our by thinking goes smoother. It's great to work with couples, it's great that maybe now we can get back and see more and more we would go to them. But that that's the challenge, I think is the adjustments. Like the technology's there. Now we can see what's going on. It's amazing that I thought bike fit that being intimate, you know, I thought, wow, we're gonna lose the intimacy. But now here's the weird thing. I'm in somebody's bedroom. I mean, yeah, that's pretty intimate. Yeah, you know, I am. I've seen couples I've seen. God, I've seen some of that are just not really good. You know, and whatnot, helping you out. And then I've seen others where it's just absolutely amazing. Delightful, because they're there and helpful and supportive each other. This is intimate stuff I didn't expect. Yeah. You know, I didn't expect to be in people's bedrooms. Yeah,

Tom Regal: 21:25

yeah, definitely not.

Paul Swift: 21:26

I mean, we're doing it like this, you know? Yeah, that was just so that blew me away. Yeah, the challenge, I think, is making these adjustments. And then the other challenge is like bike fitting had a history of there's a lot of people that say they do bike fitting and say they got a bike fit. And you and I know, they got maybe a glorified bike sizing. Yeah. And so I'm trying really hard with this media to like, educate like, here's the questions you want to ask, here's the things you want to ask. So when I'm working one on one, and I send the tools in a video how to do it. I'm not necessarily saying go do it. I'm saying this is your once run through so that when we get back together online, you're familiar with it a little bit, you got to really help hold their hand along and say we're all in it together.

Tom Regal: 22:04

Yeah, there's a glossary of terms that they need to know at least the basics right. So you can have that conversation. What are you talking about? Right? The thingy at the bottom where the whatever right, you know, like,

Paul Swift: 22:15

I mean, there's a big, big, big topic on Peloton right now, with this little rubber piece in the middle and I took it out on this one. Yeah. Okay. And there's literally 1000s of people that say this is a defective cleat. 1000 houses I bet you Peloton have spent well over a million dollars on this topic. Now to you and I, that's a lot of money, to them, that's you know, less than one quarter of a percent when you think that it's a $4 billion company. But they've spent over a million dollars chasing this stuff. And it's not even the cleat, the cleat has never been defective is no fault to it. Yeah. And but, you know, a lot of people think God, do you guys know what that little rubber piece is for?

Kenny Bailey<br>: 23:03

I don't.

Tom Regal: 23:04

Tell us.

Paul Swift: 23:05

So I got an email from the Peloton Guru the other day, who said hey, it's for walking. And you won't slip on the floor. I'm like, No, that's it. That's not it. And then there was another one that said it's for some do it float. And you've seen my video on float. And I'm like, No, that's not it. Now I can make float a little tougher, a little harder to do. But the reality of this piece is when you put your cleat into here, and if you don't have one, there can be a little space in between you're not gonna be able to get on this podcast, but I got a video but of course, there's a little there's there's more space and be done here.

Tom Regal: 23:44

See a little space there.

Paul Swift: 23:45

Okay, and you can have a little like toe tab right. And this this gets a little deep. Because this cleat is supposed to fit on every single shoe right a 36, a 44, a 48. Well, there's a curve in that cleat. Remember, speedplay has different little things. Because they didn't make that consistent now they're supposed to. But when you put this cleat on some shoes, you deform the cleat. And it's not the cleats fault. It's the shoes. And so this is where people really get like, this is the stuff I get off fascinated by. Right I got my lamps and custom shoes here. And one thing that he we talked about he talked about and I'm gonna get some insoles for it like some just the bottoms here is that you got the curvier foot and I could show a foot, but then you got the curve of the outside of the shoe. Those are not the same curves. And so what peloton has done is they spent millions and millions of dollars on a really crappy set of shoes that this curve changes and messes up the cleat and they got 1000s and 1000s of people I mean you just go to the forums every day, it was a defective cleat, oh it's thicker, no its none of the above the cleats fine. It's been the same forever. It's your shoes. And Peloton is so big that they might be able to try and bury this without having to do that but they're not facing You know what the reality is. Now that's just me because I'm into this, like, I'll take a look at this clip. This one doesn't show up. But you know, it'd be a tiny, tiny little were marked in one spot. And I'd be like, what does that mean? See, to me equipment tells you a story. So anyway, I have fun with this in the forums, I made a couple of recent little tips on it going, this is what this is for. It's not for what you thought it was for. Here's now you can live without it. Most people won't have toe tap. Yeah, but I've made a video to show like, you can make a noise by taking this out. No. Okay.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 25:30

So it's annoying, but not necessary kind of deal. Yeah. Well, and that's what's kind of interesting.......

Paul Swift: 25:35

It can be, necessary with any debate depends. And here's the other one. Like, well think about you and I, most of us, this cleat, even though this is an older style, like we didn't. So there's something that's really interesting. There's some interesting things when you're cycling. People put their shoes right next to the bike, right? Of course, makes sense. They put the shoes on and hop on. So guess what, this rubber piece never wears down. You and I would probably put our shoes in the house and start walking to the bike, you and I might go to the bathroom on a bike ride you and I might go to a store and a bike ride and then wear this down. So you're difficult if there is a point where it's sticking up and it's difficult and challenging. Obviously one day oh my god it works what's not a miracle? Yeah, it because I've had some fun challenges with this pedal I had here a second ago. You know, this, this pedal. I patented this here. And so they have a little gap in theirs and it's kind of hard to see where it is but like this, the square one would catch in the gap. The little rubber piece was I'm working with people and it was the smaller shoes again because of the curve and Shimano was guilty of it and certainly the peloton shoes really terrible. But people look at a shoe is how does it fit they don't look at it and say wait a minute, that's you also has to put a cleat on it, that shoe also has to work with a pedal. See they don't know the synergistic part of it. And so I'm working with this club that was having a lot of clip in issues and mostly clipping out on this one. And it started to kind of go away and I'm like, Well, yeah, because these are people at least walk from their car to the class and so you do that for a month or two where now you start to wear down the road. Alright, I'm getting into the weeds here but that's To give you an example of where I go with stuff and then try to make it make sense for people I have a bit one of my videos is like people can't slip into the peloton Bell they all think it's the cleat. No, it's because they often peloton almost every single person fits an exact demographic. Almost every single one not not all of them because we know shoes aren't necessarily always consistent. How much do people weigh all kinds of other factors but I can I can duplicate Peloton is problem, probably 990 times out of 1000. But just putting these demographics, they're going to look you're gonna have a clipping problem than peloton. I mean people bitching Why? I just tried to come and help. So I have learned like 4000 people are like, well, thanks for helping it was that easy? Like Yeah, well, that's the problem. It's a hack. It's not actually to fix. Yeah.

Tom Regal: 28:07

So So if someone's trying to get a fit, right, they want to get a fit. I don't want to find those fitters. How do you know you're getting a good fitter? Or what are the what are the five, three or five questions that you need to ask? And and then what are the red flags to tell you? Maybe I should keep looking?

Paul Swift: 28:24

that that that's a good question. I have several tips I put out. And I in the forums, and I'll show like, here's the four. There's actually five seat adjustments here with leg length, like, like, make sure your finger can, you know, talk about each one. Tell you why. And then there's also this aspect of it. Which is interesting, because tilt and angle if you just take the pedal, and you flip it over and you looked underneath on the inside. And in here. You'll almost always see pedal wear. And that'll tell you about the to tilt and angle of your foot a little bit. But right there, you're gonna lose nine out of 10 fitters. Yeah, but they don't know any better. So they're still gonna go with it. And then there's other things to look at like. So I just put tips together and good to ask this question. What do they say about that? Like, well, they didn't they didn't they didn't. I, you know, collectively, maybe we can try and reach more and help people get that information because I've kind of shifted from trying to be right to like, try to share of help people because there's too many of them. We don't have enough of us and you to help guide them and to find somebody that can address all these things. It's not an easy one. What do they look for it? Like? You know, we were talking about a regular bicycle. I mean, does the fitter have a screw kit? Well, what's so important about that? Well, if they don't have a screw kit, that means they probably never mess around the cleats. Well, guess what, it's only the most important connection to the bicycle. It's only place for your lock in. You can stand you can sit you can move around on a saddle. You can go no hands, you can move your hands, none of those places are locked in and they're not the one that's moving at 80 times a minute, minute after minute hour after hour, week after week blah, blah, blah. So extremely, extremely important, or I pushed fitters now to where like, you have a sample changer. You know, even I spend a lot of time with a few I spend a lot of time on all the interfaces and the saddle changer. I have seen, well, first of all, it's easily 19 out of 20 people, if not 49, or 50 of that 99 out of 100 are on the wrong saddle. I mean, it's, it's that simple. It's also like the cycling shoes. I kid you not what I measure width, I'm not lying when I say 50% of the people are on two narrow of a cycling shoe. All you gotta do is take your insole out, step on it and you can show that. But the world's this I mean, we were fighting some big stuff here. And I showed this little illustration like oh, yeah, exactly. I'm like what cuz I was kind of watching, you know, you're not alone. So, like, with saddles, and choosing saddles, and I think a fitter and a place there should be the saddle changer everywhere. Why? lots of reasons. You can change saddles quickly. What's the big deal about that? Well, you ever go to an eye doctor? What are you guys I know did at least

Tom Regal: 31:12

I'm trying not to use my glasses. (laughing)

Paul Swift: 31:15

But what looks better? A or B? Yeah. And did you ever notice the doctor never goes hey, Well, looks better. A? Excuse me? I'm gonna go to the bathroom. Yeah. Come back in B. No, they go A, B and they do it super fast. And sure time is money, but it's the brain works better that way. Yeah, we have a better, you know? Oh, you know, because even if you're not sure the brain catches the sureness. It really does. And so that's why a lot of the changes I've tried to make much more quickly now to with the stems eyes are in the saddle changer. So that's once you get better feedback. How long did it take to change this out before this?

Tom Regal: 31:55

depends on the bike. Some of them are super complicated to get the stem off.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 32:00

Or they just flat won't do it. I mean, that's one of the things is,

Paul Swift: 32:03

Some of them have gotten worse then the 10,15, 20 minute one from years ago. Some are faster. But you by the time you're on your third saddle. I think the first one was good enough.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 32:13

Exactly.

Paul Swift: 32:14

Yeah, can I take 47, 50 saddles. Now the interesting thing about that is you don't have to be a bike fitter. What I liked was the consumer can do that the person in the shop can do that. And I'm teaching bike fitting without them knowing. I'm teaching by feel. The other one is I've know that I've I may have changed more saddles than anybody on the planet, I don't know, if there's somebody that's done more, they've done a lot. When I brought the saddle change to the market, you know, where the saddle changes, just so we can clarify is like you can flip the lever and take a seat off, flip the lever, put another seat on. So you can put this on a stationary bike or something and just boom, you can get on and off and try different saddles, which is you go to a shoe store, get your foot measured, person comes out with a box of shoes go this is it and you walk out. No, you usually put the shoes on. Yeah, usually walk around on how often is actually the first period to get? I've been in a store we have 10 pairs of shoes out already. But the saddles is even more personal, more intimate breaking through a part of our body. So you change these different saddles. Now as the person implementing the saddle changes, this is where the education is. I probably did one full year, year and a half of changing saddles, looking at the rear view of the back the pelvis, whatever you want to call it the butt, 1000s of saddles, and then I oh my gosh, I changed the saddle. And literally, they started behaving and functioning differently. Right in front of my eyes that put it back. I mean, it kind of made me have an idea. That's when I couldn't do it like that. And then so now year two of developing, bringing the saddle changer to market I finally not enough students are doing it. I'm sitting there watching side view. So now I'm watching the person's side and all of a sudden, I'm like, what you guys just do? Literally just change the bike seat, their whole posture changed. Wow! And so now I understand some of these compensations and things like you don't like your saddle, or what do you mean, I like my saddle I go. You wouldn't sit like that if you didn't, but they don't know it because we want to avoid the pain. So we get into some funk slides. And the seam in front of that now, year three I'm finally now sitting and looking at the front view. And somebody changes the saddle, I'm like...... And I was just like, go back couple saddles. Look at that. You just change the saddle and their knee went out. Like how did you do that? And so people don't realize what the saddle changer does. Without even knowing that stuff that they're they're addressing that and that's where the world's got to get better. I mean, there should be one in every Peloton store so people can pick the right seat. Every bike shop if anybody wants to be fitter today you really got to have the saddle changer. It's not only a moneymaker, I mean our best fitters eight, nine at least out of every 10 biker fits they sell a new saddle and it's not because they're just trying to it's because that's how bad it is.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 34:57

Well, I think to your point You know, I was just on a Facebook forum the other day, and you've got newer triathletes that are just learning to go for any sort of decent distance on a bike. And what ends up happening is, their first reaction is, well, this hurts. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna get a big padded one, because if I add more padding to it, I don't have to, to feel that where it's, it's not, you know, it, that's the exact opposite of what you need to be doing. And the second thing that's kind of interesting, and maybe you can talk about that is people change over time, right? You get stiffer as you get older, or you if you get less fit to more fit or more fit to less fit, that that bike fit is going to change. When I was racing, you know, I had a much more aggressive style than I do now. And if I'm on a tri bike, I'm in a much different sort of posture than I am on a road bike. And especially, you know, as I got older, you can you talk a little about that, I think some people like you do it once and you think you're done where it may not be? It may be something more significant than that.

Paul Swift: 36:03

Well, you kind of brought up a few topics there, which I'm gonna make some more videos on if people haven't, you know, a gel cover. Yeah, and I have a video that shows and tries to help educate people. Number one, I just suggest cycling shorts first. Well, why? Well, you you're you're riding more than and I laid out your writing a little more than twice a week you're, you know, the benefits of and how to care for it. And because even if the saddle isn't right, when you find the right saddle, you're still gonna need those cycling shorts. And you may find that cycling shorts, and you don't need that gel cover, and most people don't. So there's a lot of education there. Because some people Oh, that feels better. Well, the one thing about softer and I show a lot is softer can be dangerous. Yeah. Because having ridden a bike all my life, I've been pretty lucky to have very little issues and challenges. But I've worked with people that have had severe, I mean, severe to surgery to like you name it. And so it's trying to separate yourself from the anatomy, point to the saddle, where's the pressure? Well, neither one of us want it front and center, we want to have a little bit further back. Sometimes I pulled the pelvis sometimes, you know, different things to help bring them along in that category. Because the one thing about numbness is something that can creep up on you. So it's not that I like pain, but it's like oh, that's how it hurts. You get it off right away. Yeah, you should anyway. (Laughing) Whereas that saddles numb I'll get I'll just stop you a little. Hey, I was out change the LA Fitness, my wife, the one of the pool there and I didn't like the bikes. And they're like, I don't know how many months or two. I'm like, wow, I'm like numb, I didn't even notice it. You know, like, Well, I have no feeling well, that's scary, because I couldn't Well, whatever, somehow, you know, I discovered it but like, yeah, that could go on a long time that can lead to some pretty big and severe, you know, problems. Alright, so the padding, you're basically changing over time. As I said, I don't know what my bike fit is today, why I've had two hip replacements now. Yeah, December 19, the truck ran a red light and almost killed me and pushed my car over 100 feet that way as I was traveling this way, and my body has changed tremendously. And this is my right, one of my right playing sample shoes with a leg length shim in there. But it used to be a much bigger and more aggressive leg length shim. We're still trying to figure out what to do my walking shoes. You know, walking, working out was a challenge for me getting shoes to fit, I mean leg length pain in the butt and, and so yeah, I need a good fit again. And I used to be I can now the cats out of the bag. But in my classes and you hadn't been to this one yet. But like we have the advanced class called hell on wheels. And so I talked about this guy I fly in as I'm teaching the class, and I'm getting on the phone, we get angry, and he went out got drunk last night and I go to the bathroom when I have my clothes on underneath. I said well, I got some good news or bad news or bad news guys not going to show, good news is I'm going to be your fit. So I'm, I don't think I'm that anymore, though. I think I was probably one of the most challenging fits out there in the world. And I've changed now. Yeah, and I'm also lost a lot of weight too, by the way, so you got people to get in better shape. Like, like, Yeah, I got it sounds way more comfortable. I like for now I like you know, it was funny. Because this guy categories, the auto pro uses this saddle. I'm like, there's lots First of all, the pro might be getting paid, probably only weighs 140, 150 pounds exact probably putting 300 pounds 300 watts into it. So the more watts you put into it, I explain that to people is like By the way, if you have a scale under your butt, yeah, it would weigh less. And by the way, indoor cycling versus outdoor cycling, if you have a scale on your butt, which one weighs more, indoor cycling, or indoor, okay, there's like, yeah, you weigh more, you're you put more weight on your butt indoor cycling than you can count. Okay, so why did some people have one on the other? Well, a lot of people, you need to add some resistance. Well, that's not my answer to the question. Should I go? Well, it just might be a little more complex problem than we think here we might have to give every aid we can here to, to help with the situation. So there's some education along the way. But yes, changing, you know, people have an injury, I've had two hip replacements and my last hip replacement surgery was October, things are going pretty well, I can finally work out and get a sweat and then boom, you know, a car almost truck almost into my life. Big changes, big change. And so you got to relook at it. And it's not a once and done unfortunately, but I do also look at it from this point. It's a snapshot in time. That's just a snapshot of this time now.

Tom Regal: 40:38

Yeah, I know when they were given when you're when you're buying your first Tri bike, you know, as the as the newbie triathletes get out there and they, they want to they want to make that next step up and buy the, the aero bike and, you know, get in that position. It usually comes with a standard seat that used to be the Fizik. You know, that was the secret all day. Yep, that all of the all the pros had so that's the one I had one on my first Tri bike that came, most uncomfortable thing in the planet for me, it just didn't work for me at all. I don't know how they got on the edge of that long nose saddle. I was like, Really? So they weren't positioning us properly on the bike to begin with, with that saddle, and it was just kind of like I'm like, Oh, really. But you would look at all the other bikes in the in the transition area, and you'd go out a guy's yeah. Oh, yeah, he's legit. He's got the Fizik saddle, got the Fizik saddle on his bike. And you're like, and after a while, it was like, it's so uncomfortable. I mean, yeah, maybe use a road bike. But not a Tri bike.

Paul Swift: 41:37

Yeah. And a couple things there again, is like, you know, then this category three cyclists I was talking to, it's like, well, that pro use I'm like, Yeah, well, you're heavier. You don't have the same thing. You're not as tough. First of all pros. Pros are tough, fucking people. I mean, yeah. People that many of them could almost ride anything. Yeah, that's not optimum, per se. But these are not normal people. Right. Yeah. You know, I raced around the world. I mean, racing in Europe in the spring sucks, man. I mean, it is hard, cold, miserable suffering, you know. And so these people do that all the time. So when it comes to Fizik, Fizik was probably at one time almost the largest aftermarkets saddles in the world. And they paid all the money to the pros. So the interesting thing about the saddle changer is not just about underbrush trying to clean my office, is I changed saddle, after saddle, after saddle. Now, mind you, I've been doing this longer to anybody because I brought it to market, but let's just say I was into it three, four years now. And that changed 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of saddles. No one, no one ever picked a Fizik. And I had them on the wall. Now, in the 10 years, I've been using it I had one person stay with the Fizik. So 10 years, I mean, I've seen 1000s of people, one guy stayed with it. The only person so I have to give the exception here that actually chose a Fizik. That was where I think Fizik was targeting us or something because they wanted to come into our office, they're gonna bring all these people on whatever project want to do together. And I took the guy through the saddle changer and he's the only human being on earth ever to pick pick a Fizik....... he worked for Fizik, then he they came in, it was kind of a weird thing, because they had this brush off like oh, well, we're looking for an insole for our shoe. And I'm like, well, that's I'm counting the depth but that's really not me that's more Kit and she wasn't there and Okay, and then they got back Oh, well we have like over a year's supply of insoles It was a total bullshit thing and they wanted to come and check out and see what we were about. I'm absolutely convinced. Mark my words. I'm absolutely convinced consumers out there. There are some saddle companies that do not want you actually to sit on their saddle that's the bullshit of what's going on out there. And then you're gonna have these shops that go sit on this little box and there's no bullshit thing that's not sitting on a bike so then specialized that what Trek copies it, is it's like the blind leading the blind it's just fucking ridiculous. There's you don't go and buy shoes without trying them on. Yeah, yeah sit on this damn thing you gotta sit on a bike because what you know when I say stationary bike, it kind of puts you in a relative position close to how you ride your bicycle. And the world is full and then are you go online? Oh, I'm a rec rider around an hour a week. Oh, and you're typing this you're typing this Oh, this is the saddle for you... absolute bullshit! So the world is feeding you with crap. Conventional.... And the other one here the conventional wisdom sorry to get on my horse. You know some of the conventional wisdom says this. Well guess what? conventional wisdom has caused a lot of pain in a lot of people's lives. You know, people run their knees golf to bring your knees in bullshit. You know why the guy's knees go out. You know if you ride with your knees out, that's where they want to go. When you walk, run, stand right now do that. By the way, though. I tell you guys where to put your feet right now.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 44:50

No,

Paul Swift: 44:51

Really? Is there some magnet or channel where your feet like can only go or did you just put your feet wherever you thought about or didn't think about, you put your feet wherever you want them. No shit huh? really? I'm guessing when you walk you put your foot wherever you want to. Yeah, I'm guessing when you go upstairs you put your foot where you want to do. I guess if you get an elliptical such a wide platform you put foot wall where you want to right now, you get on the bike, guess what happens? The bicycle tells you where to put your foot. Yeah, we have a big job folks, fitters, and fitters use this. Somebody got me a going the other day he called him. Oh, I fit the bike to the body. Except for when it comes to the feet bullshit, you're gonna have to suffer. And it goes like, well, you have anything on alignment there. I said, when you have something that shows me misalignments better. So it's, but then the saddle changer showed me how big the pelvis is. The pelvis is a crossroads of human function. That's Dr....... And he's not even Dr. Richard Jackson, from the Jackson Clinics, who's probably the most famous physical therapist in the world of physical therapy and the pelvis. So I'm therefore I adopted the term the pelvis as the crossroads of cycling. And we've seen that I used to think it was only like the foot pedal Well, when you couldn't change a saddle very well, when y'all rode those old damn saddles that were terrible, we were stuck by the equipment. And we still are to some degree, it's better. Let's get triathlon was one of the greatest introductions because we realized you can go more forward on the bicycle. Knee Pain is not for - aft. Knee pain is height, maybe a little bit of crank length in there or your cleat position unless there's something with you and a weakness or something going on. Those are what causes knee pain not how forward you are back here and the problem is I just made a video on people go forward you lower the saddle a centimeter and a half. Well no you didn't it wasn't before half seat you lowered your seat height where you get things like you know in the sort of world is full of this crap Now the great thing about let's say gravel bikes and mountain bikes is finally the handlebars are going to get more comfortable. For years I've been saying look this is not put your hands out guys how your hands are now your hands straight cots for like a road bike right now. No, they never are taken on the bicycle. The bicycle is telling you what to do with idea for us is to make the bike fit you and your lifestyle. Let's maybe you're pro and get paid. Anyway, you got me on the high horse there for a little bit. In the dressing gravel was gonna be one of the greatest influences. I was on this forum the other day, there's a bunch of old curmudgeons maybe like myself and others. They're like, Oh, Don't bullshit. Nobody's gonna ride handlebars like that. What a bunch of.... wake up folks. We got handlebars are changing forever. And I've been trying to do it for years. You know, I used to look at the stance with on the pedals. You know is the peddles fault is maybe we need cranks that you can get into where and wider with neighbors the bike company's fault? I don't know. But collectively, we can do way better. Yeah. Yeah.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 47:41

Preach!

Tom Regal: 47:42

Love it. I love it.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 47:43

So how do we? How do we put fun back into cycling? I think you know.

Paul Swift: 47:49

So that's what I tell people, especially when I teach classes, I go, why do we do bike fitting? And I have a slide on this. And it's like, you know, we want to help them more efficiently. They want to make more power. They want to be more comfortable. We want to make money. And by the way, those are all legit. Yeah. But I think the number one thing is and everybody forgets because they're in the classroom, they're gonna learn. So Well, I think the reason we do by fitting is because cycling should be fun. Used to be fun when you're a kid. You know, but we can we can ride toward terrible positions. It didn't hurt us. You know, that's the way we were. But you know, we're different. I'm 55 you know, you guys are 40s yet, but you know...

Tom Regal: 48:25

50s Sorry, brother.

Paul Swift: 48:28

And so, you know, I say I said this guy, it was 10 years ago, but he owned a bike shop for 35 years. Well, I'm not even gonna say the name of it. Big well known bike shop several of them blah, blah, blah. And I did the fit. And like, I swear to God, it was eye opening for this guy has ridden this bike forever. It's like, oh my god to experience the joy and wonder of cycling. So I look at it like this. Anything we do that to help prevent people stop riding a bike? Yeah. And bike fitting is. I was at a camp when I was filling in and actually for Greg LeMond was a weird thing. There was a kid there who kind of didn't like riding a bicycle. And he had cerebral palsy. And his one foot turned way out. And I had an idea right away,Why. He said no I don't like riding a bicycle. I'm like, wow, you know, this is moving. For me this. This is what bike fitting is about. And Cycling is about because this little kid wasn't experiencing the joy and wonder that you and I experienced as a child because his foot turned out. And I immediately knew right away. He needed a pedal spacer on that pedal. That's it. That's bike fitting people that's bicycle life. And I put that pedal spacer on and the kid's life changed before my eyes. That is how cycling has moved me. That was a privilege and honor given to me to see that kid change. I'm sorry, that gives me emotional but like how did I get blessed with that opportunity? That's here. That's what You know, I've had people get off bikes hug me with tears in their eyes. They love cycling so much it hurts so badly that they're gonna quit. Yeah, yeah. And, but that I was helping that kid was just mind blowing.

Tom Regal: 50:13

That's awesome.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 50:15

And it wasn't rocket science either. I mean, you put a spacer.... It's like somebody took time to actually just look and understand the situation.

Paul Swift: 50:23

I'm in for me to hit in a second. Because that's what I look at now. But bike shop owners I you know, I work with some instructors I go, you don't have to know how to fit like this. But I do think maybe it's a responsibility to know that there's help out there for someone that needs it. And maybe you can help connect them because we as bike fitters are connectors, you as coaches are connectors. I've got to work that up here in Spokane, I'm still you know, I'm gonna probably start traveling and teaching again. But like, people would come to me like, Oh, I want to do my first century. Well, when I'm in Seattle be like, Oh, this is a great club to hook up with. They will help you get ready. I'm a connector. I want to start racing it I think I need a coach. Here's a coach. I like to ride over here but I ride on these roads and like you know what, here's how I learned to get around that construction. Here's how I avoid that road. Now. We're connected we do these things. Because we're you know, a couple of hours we're with somebody close by on the peloton is constantly like, oh, man, I can't tell at 90 rpm. First of all, you don't have to. You can pedal 50, 60 rpm. That's okay. Yeah, it's okay. You're pedaling? Yes, you don't have to peddle at 100 rpm. But I also have I'm going to make a couple videos on show you if you want to increase that. I'm going to show you some ways that there's a lot of bullshit ways out there. I had this guy do that. Oh, riding rollers makes you better riding a bike. That's conventional wisdom bullshit right there. You know riding rollers makes you better at?

Kenny Bailey<br>: 51:48

Riding rollers.....

Paul Swift: 51:49

Riding rollers. Exactly. Riding a bicycle, and ride rollers, if are properly set up are actually easier than riding on a bicycle on the street. People don't believe that, but they don't they go in with a perception. That almost always kills them. And number two, they're almost always set up wrong. Once you get rid of the perception is and set them up right. The laws of physics say you can't fall off. No, we as people break that particular law. But it's something in our head that does it. Had a friend of mine. He's 60 something now nearly died once or twice. And it's like, Man, I'm afraid to ride a bicycle. Like Dude, you're not afraid to ride a bicycle. And you know how to ride a bicycle. You remember it like, but I'm guessing here's your fear. Getting on and off or stopping? He's like, Yeah, that's it. Cuz I know once you start pedaling, you fall back. Yeah. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna break this down to we're gonna find a curb. We might not even go pedaling today. We're gonna get on and off the bike, put your foot down, right, now we feel more comfortable that way. We'll switch it to left foot, right foot. We're going to pick a target where we see where it's easy to stop. And we're going to go from A to B. And we're going to get rid of that. Address that fear. Yeah, this is the part I like about cycling is I had this lady who was a marathon runner. She wanted to do her first century she didn't think she could do it. What do you think guys? Yeah, if she can run a marathon. She's got it.

Tom Regal: 53:15

She's got it.

Paul Swift: 53:16

She can ride a century. This woman though however went slower downhill than uphill because of fear.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 53:26

My wife my wife does the exact same thing.

Paul Swift: 53:29

And so I took her in this gal I know it's just like Paul, you're the one that can help her. So we get together we go around the parking lot and do a couple little just, you know ride that between the knot of whatever and she's like why are we doing this we want just to be more comfortable on a bicycle and so and finally I rode over into the grass once and she stopped us why are we doing this? I said well you never know what's going to you know the road or a detour versus an accident and you got to get around it and just to become more comfortable on the bike and this this lady was charming she was what she had these blocks you know and and anyway she goes and rides the solving century there was a detour where I don't know was a half mile quarter mile on gravel and she calls me up because my friend was terrified and I was just fine! That's what bike fitting is you know it's everybody thinks just this little you know, whatever but you know so I want to show people on the Peloton that maybe pedal more smoothly if you want to. You don't have to, but a lot of people think it's not okay. A lot of people think it has to be this can be any bicycle. I had a gal come in. I was watching this because I grew up poor and saddles are expensive. And this gal she's a fitness rider, rides one to two hours a week tennis shoes, clothing, you know? And she goes I got $65 for a new saddle. Well, what would any bike shop do? Go buy them maybe$75 saddle and raise her up a little bit. So this is the one yeah, the only took her to the saddle changer and all the different ones and obviously goes oh this is it. And the guy looks at me He's like, well, it's $105, you know, and I sat there, and I was intrigued, because I don't like upselling. Because I know what it was like to be very poor. But I want to properly sell and I want to and she thought about it fine, she goes, I'll take it. That's when I knew that that product meant something because it wasn't about selling more expensive. It was about getting the product that she would actually use, and enjoy on her one to two hour bike rides, and maybe only do it 20, 30 times at your service. 20 times it was $5 a ride for one year to do that, and that's where I want I want to work with the Peloton people like just give them the right shorts, the right saddle

Tom Regal: 55:42

Yep, small things, small things.

Paul Swift: 55:45

And why I thought the indoor and outdoor worlds should blend because now there's groups like Peloton road riders. And I remember people in the spinning class they go there started Oh my god, this is great. I think I want to ride my bike outside instructor goes on that's great. Like there was, here's a chance here's an opportunity. But there wasn't anything in place to help that person go outside. I can't tell how many people we're going to the Peleton forums like, hey, I want to get a bike outside No, like, and they're in their 50s or 40s. Like, you know what the gravel bike is awesome. Yeah, we don't have to, I mean, like, clicks on or whatever. Like, I don't have a road bike anymore. I have a gravel bike because road tires, or I put on my gravel bike. I mean, it's just beautiful. Those are the connections that we all need to do more of. You know, yeah, there's a specific bike and stuff I'd like to talk about. But I want people to just experience the joy and wonder of cycling.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 56:33

So I have to get geared towards that. I have to ask you, because I asked, you know, physical therapists, this and I asked people that are experts in their field. When you go to like a park, or you see a bunch of people riding a bike, and you know that they're doing it incorrectly, does your brain like, explode inside? Because I know, like physical therapists will see people running that are like, you know, do you have this? Like, I can help this person? You know, I don't know, is that is that something that you can never turn off? Or is it something that you're always like, you point out, not in a bad way, but you're like, well, that person who really could use that saddle being dropped a little bit that person? I mean, it doesn't always happen that way in your head.

Paul Swift: 57:11

Not always.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 57:13

You can let it go?

Paul Swift: 57:15

I guess I guess, I think because it hit me once where I had to let it go. Okay, learn to but I often will find a subtle way to maybe approach or talk about or show because I've had it where it wasn't receptive. People don't want to hear it. Because I'm not Mr. tactful and graceful. I shoot from the hip. Freakin' accurate from the hip, but I shoot from the hip, and people don't like that. And so I realized there's my personality, too. Yeah. Now my wife's a physical therapist, and she's something I've heard her say to her head, I'm not working. I'm not working. But I think that's the beauty of it. You know, I mean, we're blessed to have that, that that knowledge, you know, and, and if that's a challenge, you know,

Kenny Bailey<br>: 58:01

I just I know when I was, you know, Mike, my bike fitter, my physical therapist, he also ran the bike club that I raced for, and he would be sitting behind me, like on a climb, and all I can think about is this guy sitting behind me. Like, is he thinking like, how is he working? Because when I followed him, he's an absolute, like, he is just just solid on the saddles, not moving great cadence. And then he gets behind me, and I'm like, Oh, am I doing this? Right? What am I doing? I don't know. It's just it's kind of a funny way. Yes. Yeah, it's just that that weird, sort of, you know,

Paul Swift: 58:33

you know, and not everybody is that I raced at the elite level, I'm just gonna say his name Thurlow Rogers on the you know, that's a big name. And he maybe for it, maybe I haven't heard race pro for many years. And I remember I finally showed a little daughter park in Southern California, like I heard Thurlow Rogers is gonna be going be here. I just wanted to meet him and I wanted to be in the same race with him. Wow, it's pretty cool. I'm like, well, where the hell is he? That guy's like, He's right next to you. He looked like shit on the bike (laughing) There was no way this great cyclists. It looks so horrible. Yeah. And it's like, you know what, people come in all shapes and sizes. Yeah. And that came up the other day in a forum. like, Oh, that's just one cyclist. Well, I just popped out an example of, you know, like, not everybody looks great on a bike. I didn't look necessarily great in the bike. Let me I spent years I did ballet. I did all kinds of things to become more graceful, but I was at an elite level.... screw that. Sitting at the bar one day, I'm in Southern California. I've down at Balboa Penisula inside America bicycle training camp, you know, the US cycling team and I decide to go to the bar and have a beer. Sitting next to this old surfer guy. Do you surf? I'm like naw, then somehow so yeah, I've got a boogie board you know, a couple of times because you ever catch a wave? I went yeah not many, but I caught a wave. He goes - you're a surfer.

Tom Regal: 59:41

There you go.

Paul Swift: 59:42

That is the day. You pedal a bicycle. You're a cyclist.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 59:49

Yeah,

Tom Regal: 59:49

Yeah.

Paul Swift: 59:50

Okay. Everybody is a cyclist to me. I treat you the same and I've fit plenty of pros. And I don't necessarily like to do it because the pay and the money is not there and they go Everybody wants to go fit them with somebody else. I'm past that now. Or let me said, Oh, don't you want to compare somebody to look at one of my students do it? I'm like, What about you? I go. If my students can't do it, then I'm not any good.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 1:00:10

Exactly.

Paul Swift: 1:00:11

And so everybody who rides a bike, like my daughter's friend was over and I'm training was, by the way, no training was no training was okay. You learn to pedal on a tricycle. No contraindicated or counterintuitive way to balance, you learn balance on a push bike, and then you put it together. And the reason I bring up the tricycle, and I didn't used to is I had a cousin with cystic fibrosis. Remember, he was trying to learn to ride a bike. And he didn't have the concept of pedaling down. I was like, oh, oh, like he had training wheels on his bike. I'm like, Oh, this is a challenge. So your training wheels makes learning harder, by the way. If I had to raise it up in some way, in some blocks and things I had to teach him pedaling. Like he wasn't gonna ride a bike because he couldn't pedal. No, but now I'll take the pedals off, and I'm making a push bike. But then there's the fear. And so I'm working with a friend of mine, his daughter, and I worked with somebody online it was, this lady couldn't clip into her peloton. Shoes. Anyway, I'm like, so I bring the pixie dust out. I just want to let you know, I was told you're gonna, you're gonna ride this bike. And in the fairy give me some pixie dust to sprinkle on your bike. And I just want you to know, you are gonna ride your bike. And it's okay. You know, and to get over, it's always the fear. So my buddy, the older guy goes, Yeah, you're right. I go to when you get on your bike and pedal, everybody can do it. I mean, nearly everyone, you got to have something like this other factors, being scared of traffic being, you know, so no wonder indoor cycling school being you know, how do I stop? How do I I'm afraid to ride like, Paul, you took her into grass. And I'm not, I don't like that. You know, and then this wonderful lady just blast them, you know, when she hit the gravel. And to me, that's bike fitting and bike fitting, and you're more comfortable you ride things like, you know, people say, Oh, I had to put a short stem on the bike, I'd never do that, while this person is only riding 13, 14 miles an hour anyway in a straight line. And here's the deal. I think a good bike fit means you control the bike better anyway. Because a poor bike rate can add to less comfort, as far as just dealing with the bike. So you get the bike fit, you eliminate some of the stuff that's hanging on, like bike fits, cycling is supposed to be enjoyed. I remember the first time I rode with my girlfriend, but my wife, eventually to West Seattle, it was a beautiful sunny day in Seattle. imagine that. And it was a new bike and I'm 17 years ago. I remember my wrist hurt. That wasn't supposed to be about that. So say this supposed to be about me. Yeah, having a good time with this gal. So people say what's cycling supposed to be about? What's bike fitting supposed to be about? My definition is pretty open. It should be about whatever you want it to be like, What do you mean Paul? If I'm riding to the coffee shop with my buddy, I want the ride to the coffee shop to be about me and my buddy. Yeah, I don't want to be worrying about a gear or something not working, right. That's the mechanics job. By the way. That's what I remember. I'm a connector and a message like, I don't want to be thinking about, you know, I remember I got a brand new bike and I took it out of the box to essentially take my hands off when I was in the ditch while the headset was messed up. Well, you know, the mechanic part needed to be done, cycling should be whatever you want it to be. In other words, if you're racing at the pro level, it shouldn't be in the way it should only be the vessel that you're on, and you get to do if you want to ride at a coffee shop, you're gonna ride to wherever and the other one is. I'll call your comfort fitter and not a performance fitter. So now it's bullshit. Because in order for you or anybody to ride to the grocery store, you have to put in a performance. You can't get there without performing in some way. You have to put some effort into it. If you don't get there. Yeah, yeah. I think too much too. And depending on the client, I'm like, look your job next month before you come back, don't read internet.

Tom Regal: 1:03:57

Stay off the internet.(Laughing)

Paul Swift: 1:03:58

we'd hear nothing, no conventional wisdom. What am I supposed to think about when I peddle? I'm supposed to pull, supposed to scrape the pedal? Bullshit, there is no such.

Tom Regal: 1:04:04

Just pedal,

Paul Swift: 1:04:05

I've done it for years. There's no such thing as that. There are ways to help smooth it out if you want to. But there's no such thing as there's no data that suggests you pointed pedals that makes you any better none. There's none the same scraping about n ne. And they talk about this s it all the time. So I get a g y who is sometimes a gal but u ually it's a guy just talking, t lking, talking. Finally, look, s op. Put your tennis shoes on. A d I go grab two bikes off the f oor. And I go for a ride side b side and I get down to the e d of the street and I start to g oh my god, I talked the whole w y which is pretty easy for me a you can tell. And so I s opped I'm like, oh my god. W at's up? I go. We went from t ere to here. And it goes like y ah, I said Guess what? I never t ought about pedaling once. But s mehow we got here. That's what c cling is supposed to be. Yeah. I was about the conversation w th the guy and engaging g tting him to disengage. Let go o the bullshit. Yeah, enjoy c cling.

Tom Regal: 1:05:00

Yeah,

Paul Swift: 1:05:01

that's what drives me. Yeah. And so that's why I make all these little tiny videos and things all the time I just people to let go with the crap conventional wisdom crap is held us back You know?

Tom Regal: 1:05:14

And that's I mean it goes right along with what we've been doing in with this podcast is what is an athlete? right? what is a cyclist? Someone who gets off the couch and does something right? You just get on a bike and you're a cyclist! You're you know,

Paul Swift: 1:05:26

yeah, when I designed the Revmaster to I designed it so A), you can back up to somebody on the couch and they just make and put their feet and start pedaling. Like it's a recumbent. I give no excuse for people not ride. Yeah, I make it like, I mean, my biggest thing right now is a project with my kids. jujitsu like I do stuff and spinning. And so I got a couple bikes, I put it in there. Because you know what, I was tired of parents sitting at the sides going like this all day, for an hour, I got two spin bikes there. So you can watch your kid and pedal at the same time

Kenny Bailey<br>: 1:05:51

There you go.

Paul Swift: 1:05:53

So I'm always looking for an outlet, or a reach. And that's, to me its true about, you know, I'm good at fitting, I want you to be and I'll help you anybody that wants to, like when I help somebody, it's like, because somebody was all worried about this system and had to have a Retul. So well, if you have a Retul and you come to me, I'm not sure how to fill in all the holes, I'm gonna have take advantage of the good parts of it, then I'm going to try and fill in the gaps so that you are like, as complete as possible. Now, if you have to compete with Retul down the street, I'm going to show you every problem there is with that thing, and it's only a tool and this and that and I'm gonna try and make you complete. I don't care. I want you to be the best fitter that you can. I'll give you everything I got for that. But I've learned more and more and that's why I've changed my approach a little bit more a lot more social media with like, I'm going to go in and I'm blessed. I get great reviews. Not everybody comes a great filter though. Yeah, yeah. And I so I want to work more on those parts. Like how about if they're pretty damn good, but their their business is good. Their connection with people is good. And then that will come because there's so many There's still so many bad bikers out there so many.

Tom Regal: 1:06:57

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no. All the time. So what are the social media channels so we need to find you on

Paul Swift: 1:07:04

Ask the fitter man.

Tom Regal: 1:07:05

There it is.

Paul Swift: 1:07:06

Since I sold bikefit.com, I just went to Ask The Fitter. Love them on Instagram @askthefitter. Facebook, a hangout and a lot of peloton for forums but Facebook has Ask the Fitter. My website it Ask the Fitter will go to my page it doesn't say Ask the Fitter yet, but we'll go there. And I'm just here to you know, work on that stuff. So I was going to show you know, I just developed the pedal that like it does tilt, does rotation, it goes up and down. It goes in and out you know, but like so what? What you want to get on this pedal and go. So I've done a lot of the research and things to like get it down to like someone said the other day it really hit me Someone said the geniuses if you can make something that's First of all, it's just not complicated. But so the average person can understand it. That's my focus. I want everybody to experience the joy and wonder of cycling. I want everyone has seikaly ever moved you. Yeah. Give me share one quick story what's moved you I've shared a few already.

Tom Regal: 1:08:06

As a couple actually I do a lot of work with the MS Society and their their Bike MS. Right. So we have family with with MS. We go out we ride we have a team that's done it. We ride with people who have MS. And they ride and getting him out there on their bikes, getting them comfortable getting them set up. And going through this. It's just we've been doing it for 15 plus years. And I we're now doing rides across the country we're doing in a couple other spots. I'm looking forward to now that I'm out here in Tennessee, we've got Jack and Back, we just did the LA ride again for the 15th year. But getting getting people out there. Actually there was through a contest, we actually gave away an Izip ebike to a woman that has MS. That was struggling a bit right she was having more challenges and she wasn't being able to cycle the way she wanted to. And the activity helped her body respond much better. So we actually got her the Izip bike, gave it to her she went out on a ride took some pictures thanked us it just it blows my mind every time that we can get somebody to be active and that active lifestyle helps with, you know, diseases that are really trying to keep you down.

Paul Swift: 1:09:18

It's cycling is one of the things that a lot of people can do. And I could share all kinds I don't want to you know, steal your thunder because that's just that to me is cycling.

Tom Regal: 1:09:27

Yeah. Community.

Kenny Bailey<br>: 1:09:29

Brother. Yeah, I think it's it's a similar story. We actually just got a Facebook post, you know, like one of those I Hey, 10 years ago you did this. It was a similar thing we rode across the US for team Will was to raise money and raise awareness for Children's Cancer. And we had the opportunity to visit children's hospitals cancer wards on the way so we went from San Francisco to Kitty Hawk, North Carolina and we you know, in Indiana, we got to go to the Peyton Manning Children's Hospital. And what we did is we brought our jerseys with us. And we brought a sharpie and said, Look, you know, you want to get autographs of your heroes. And you guys are our heroes. And we'd walk in and say, you know, we left California, and we go to Indiana, we're like, Hey, I understand, you know, you're looking to get a smile today. So we thought we'd get on a bike and ride over and say, hi. And we said, you know, you guys are really our heroes, if you can, could you sign the back of my jersey, and they would take a sharpie. And first off, you know, the idea of, you know, writing on clothing is a little, you know, unusual, right? It's like, Oh, can I do this? Like, absolutely. And on the back of our jerseys, we had signatures of all the kids that were, we were able to do that. But that changed me was we would have, we had we had badges of the kids were writing for and one of the kids that passed away have brain cancer, was the same age as my son and would have been on the same soccer team as my son. And I had him clipped on my handlebars, and I'm riding up in Colorado, we're going over the Loveland pass, which is you know, 1000 Yeah. And it was a day, right, it was a day. And what kept me going was when I'm done. I mean, my pain is when I get off the bike, like this kid had no choice, right? Yeah, day in, day out. 24. Seven, he's dealing with pain. And this gets me emotional, because I can just get off my bike. And that's not fair.

Paul Swift: 1:11:31

Right? Well, I'm a survivor. And I don't I don't, yeah, those are straight stories. And, and I and I suggest all newer, especially aspiring fitters to get involved with a charity to get your stuff out there. But to get that movement and feeling because, look, I've raced a race all around the world. And people asked me about moments, they're not bike races, and I've won some cool stuff. Yeah, you know, so I shared with you what really is cycling. And I've, so I typically fit somebody who has cancer does something I don't necessarily learn it with the group because I've been around a while but like, you know, grow into high school with that her fit cuz she has cancer and she wanted to go raise money and the guy on the local nine round here, and whenever you just got moved one day by cancer, and he has signatures on his helmets, and he raises money for it. And so I do is fit for free. Because you know, as somebody who's I can't I do, I do barbells for boobs because I don't have to ride 100 miles, I can just do a lift and get it over with. Anyway, I would like to how you ever want to figure this out? I'd like to give away a few rides and and grow socks, some of your viewers. I'll do three pairs, we can make a question. We could do something where they maybe they share a little story where they moved. They were moved by it. Yeah, pick that. And I'll do the shipping everything, no charge. And let's do three pair of socks, ride, learn grow, because I think the more you ride, the more you learn and grow. And I think we just shared that today. So it's more but when I finished the part of it.

Tom Regal: 1:13:04

Yeah. Yeah. So let's do that. Let's have people send in stories, how cycling moved, you

Paul Swift: 1:13:10

will just pick the first three and we'll there address and we'll send them some ride, learn grow socks.

Tom Regal: 1:13:17

Very cool. and that's the perfect note to wrap up on Paul, I can't thank you enough. It's been it's been great, great conversations. For me doing this podcast or meeting such cool people and spend some great time and having great conversations. It's been a lot of fun. So I appreciate your time and your efforts as well. I'm sure we'll be reaching out to talk to you again.

Paul Swift: 1:13:37

I would love it. I think it was my privilege to be on your show today. So appreciate it. This is what cycling has blessed me with these opportunities. So and collectively, you know, we can we can reach in touch more.

Tom Regal: 1:13:49

Yeah, that's for sure. For sure. So thanks everybody for listening. Once again, you know, five stars would be great. If it's not five star worthy, you know, let us know. You know, give us a help or help us learn and get better with this whole thing. And we really appreciate all your time and everything. So thanks again.