Athletes in Motion

EP 014 Stuart McDougal, Mike & Jen Davidson

November 02, 2021 Tom Regal and Kenny Bailey Season 1 Episode 14
Athletes in Motion
EP 014 Stuart McDougal, Mike & Jen Davidson
Show Notes Transcript

Open water swimming get you nervous?

After 17 years out of the spotlight, Mike Davidson, an Olympic swimmer, and Jennifer Davidson an accomplished collegiate talk about how they met Coach Stuart McDougal, his SoCal Tri Masters swim group and rediscovered swimming without pain.  Stuart also explains methods to deal with open water anxiety and how swimming in open water can be joyful.  Mike and Jennifer are now tackling open water challenges like the Bridge to Bridge, a 10k swim from The Golden Gate bridge to the SF Bay Bridge.   A great episode for those that want to be better swimmers!

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Narrator:

Welcome to the Athletes in Motion Podcast from Race to Recovery. With your hosts, Tom Regal, and Kenny Bailey.

Tom Regal:

Good Hey, Kenny, how you doing today?

Kenny Bailey<br>:

I'm doing well. Tom, how are you?

Tom Regal:

I'm fantastic. We have a wonderful set of guests today I want to introduce Mike Davidson, Jen Davidson and Stuart McDougal. So our ultra swimmers here. We've got I'm, I'm really terrible at introducing people. And I'm probably fumbling through this right now. But let's start with Mike, who's our Olympian. And he's got one heck of a background on that. Why don't you introduce yourself? Mike, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Mike Davidson:

Yeah, I'm Mike Davidson and 58 years old now. And I've gotten back into swimming thanks to one of the well thanks to my wife, Jennifer, and also one of the other guys on this podcast. Coach Stuart, my background goes way back to the 70s and 60s learning to swim in New Zealand grew up on a on a dairy farm with a river literally a river running around the bottom of the boundary at the back of the farm. And that's where a swimming hole was we'd go swim there and then my sister almost drowned. So my dad ended up building us a pool in the backyard and long story short, we started swimming in that and actually doing little workouts many workouts my mom was my first coach in the mornings before I'd go to school at like nine years of age and then we ended up eating that pool and of course you go out of that pool so then you go the next the next area and you go into the little town there and just swim and that that city and then they don't have a heated pool so the next step is you got to find a heated pool and we end up in Auckland, New Zealand which is the largest city in New Zealand which has a you know, better quality facilities in that and you end up going to school there and as that's progressing you tend to get a little bit better and start swimming across the Tasman with the not swimming across the Tasman suing the country of Australia which is a smaller country to the west of New Zealand and you swim there and you do pretty good and then you end up in California something there and you times improve and you end up you know going to the Olympics and then getting a scholarship to to swim in school in the United States like how I met my wife Jennifer swimming there and you know just progress is but something's always been a part of my life whether I liked it it sometimes or didn't like it. But the last bring us up to date now what's really got me involved as Jennifer got back into swimming is that for four or five years she can correct me if I'm wrong ago with Coach Stewart and sort of I wasn't that keen to get back into the water after being gone for so long. I'd had shoulder problems you know which distance runners tend to do back in that that generation of swimming. And you know, she was just having so much fun going and swim with Coach Stewart over there at the LA Valley College in San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles so I got dragged along I don't want to say willingly at first by Jennifer but I'm glad that she did as you know she's always right and and I actually mean that sincerely so I went along and a ended up swimming some laps again and and you know could still help me out with my stroke. I haven't had shoulder issues in the last four years or I think it's about four or three years maybe that have been back in the water you know, and I'd been away for 20 something years from something so yeah, it's it's exciting one things led to another and of course what we've all gone through with this global pandemic the last I don't know what are we 18 months into it something like that maybe longer. The open water swimming has sort of become a daily staple when we're in town and Jennifer and I just started going and swimming every day in the ocean and thoroughly enjoyed it we get it out of the way in the morning and that sort of led to what we're going to talk about later on but the one of the Morrison's that we did the bridge to bridge but you know it's something it's just one of those things I think you know I have depression that runs in my family and I think it's something that it just you know can really really help and benefit anyone you know I did my we were talking about before we went on started this we're talking about sitting on a couch I did plenty plenty of years doing that with potato chips watching football, basketball and feeling sorry for myself so I think you know I think swimming in general whether it be in a rectangle with you know, eight foot of water underneath you or ocean or river which I learned to summon, it can can lead you different directions in your life and just for your overall well being, I just think it's a great thing to do. And I'm saying that now that I'm back swimming again, saying that 10 years ago, but I know we've got to get going here. But yeah, I don't want to bore you with all the details. But you know, I've been very, very lucky with the air, my family, my mother and my taking my dad to we're just so so supportive, and never had a negative word. So I was very Yeah, just very, very lucky. And then, and Jennifer continues that too. She says, she's a bit of a hard, hard driver some days, you know, but we we get to the water every day, and we don't really miss too many. And we actually enjoy it. Yeah, speaking for myself. Anyway, I enjoy Jennifer's company too. So that makes life a lot easier.

Tom Regal:

Yeah, that helps. Well, we're all kind of connected to coach Stuart here. And that's the that's the fun part. That's kind of how we brought this together. So I met coach Stuart through her SoCal Tri Masters swim master swim program at Valley College in Los Angeles. And, and coach will have you talk but as we're going through all this, we all kind of got back into swimming again, with coach Stu learning how to swim properly. And without injury, and now I'm coaching Kenny, those same techniques and things especially in open water. So, coach, give us your give us your background. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Stuart McDougal:

Turn the mic on. I get way too much credit by way, but thank you, Mike and Tom, But um, it's always great having you guys now. I mean, I I wasn't a swimmer, you know, as I didn't start, you know, swimming as a kid. I was a hockey player, my parents Canadians. So naturally, we were on the ice at two years old. So I played hockey, you know, all the way up through to a few years ago. I haven't played in a couple years, but I played at a high level during school and that was actually kind of recruited on college teams where I didn't even go to college. I kind of didn't work side classes where they thought I was going to college. I was playing college, hockey when I was about 16. And I actually got, I don't think I've ever told you guys this, the 1980 Maybe I told you Tom 1980 Olympic team, you know Herb Brooks, you know, when we beat the Russians, you know, won the gold and stuff like that. It was a really great series. I actually got an invite to try it out in Colorado Springs, wow, skate in front of Herb Brooks, not that I ever would have made it. But I remember my dad was gonna pay for itself he saw you can go out pay for it. And you know, the prior Olympics, we got we got Okay, we got our butts kicked by the Czech B team you know, so I was like, we're so embarrassed to go there. I was like, really arrogant. As I passed, that was one of my regrets. I wish I would have at least kind of go out there and skate in front of Herb Brooks because Herb was one of my favorite coaches. But that's one little bit trivia about me, I missed that opportunity. But you know, I know those opportunities opened up other opportunities. And I didn't really get into swimming. I got my daughter in the swimming first because I didn't really care what she did. She started tennis and then we've got her in the swimming and had really drag her kicking and screaming and then we you know, then we got her on the swim team and she started really enjoying it. And then she's on some team for about six, seven years and we found triathlon through actually through Disney my day job they're looking for relay swimmer, Hey, Mandy, you want to try us out. And she was getting kind of burnt out on the swim team she started to get shoulder injuries you know and look PTSD with the coaches yell in real time. So it was kind of a nice change. And anyway, she she got in there and she just loved it. And then the very next year, then I got into it. So I started swimming, I realized how much of a of a hockey player I was in the water right I was sink like a rock and this is awful. But I somehow I managed to survive and still, you know get out of the water and then catch up in a bike and run but it wasn't until I have found a book by accident by authored by Terry Laughlin, Total Immersion. And, you know, I've been in swim team stuff, you know, or at least around the language and, and the approach that they would teach swimmers or coach swimmers. But he talked about something completely different. I've never heard of more along the lines of science. And I've never heard of this, these terms. And it was one is talking about balance, balance and posture and streamline the body really making the body long, being stable in the water. And then having fluid strokes. You know, the shape of the vessel matters more than the size engine right there. I had, you know, had my attention. So I read a few pages. And you know, did some practices and I remember that I had been doing triathlons for a couple of years I was doing an Escape from Alcatraz which I was like almost the last one and the water took me an hour and 10 minutes here to cross the bay. But this year was different. And with those few cues that I got from Terry and just reading his book. I went for about an hour five hour in 10 days. After 45 minutes, and the currents were about the same. And so I really had my attention, I was self taught for quite a while. And I started to get better, more mid pack swimmer. And then I finally took a workshop. And that kind of completely changed me. And then I got to go to coach training and actually be coached to be a coach by Terry Laughlin, which was also a life changing experience for me because he kind of broke everything down. And really taught it from really taught swimming from not all the science of swimming, but the physiologist and how a person thinks and how a person responds the reactive brain versus the conscious brain, and how you can manage those two to get the swimmer more comfortable water because we're not built for swimming. We're humans. After all, we learn how to swim with the exception of Mike he's, he's a born fish. Born dolphin, pretty the rest of us, you know, we have our we have our issues. But then I remember I turned coach, and I remember at that time Mandy was going to college, she walked away from swimming from shoulder injuries and didn't want to do things anymore. And I managed to bring her back I said, let me just, you know, let me try you a little bit. Try work on your limit. And, and there was just a short period of time that she was swimming like 26 strokes across the post as fast swimmer, but a lot of strokes, a lot of pain. And she went from 26 to about 12 And she was going faster with no pain. And I remember she popped out once oh my god, I've been doing it wrong all these years. I said no, they just are teaching a little bit differently and using not only training the body but also the mind to connect and make the most of those those things happen. So long, long story short, I start SoCal Tri Masters shortly after that really just to build a platform to experiment and observe right because you know as a coach and you notice that all you guys knows is that you learn so much from observation but you need to know that what what your knowing you're actually seeing what your knowing is, is really give you some information. And then you know, and then you know you came on board and NBC Tri Team came on board and then Jen came aboard I remember her talking about her husband's Oh God bring them in, you know, but I didn't know much about him. Then I heard about his own tech background. Oh my god, I gotta get I think it's kind of cool. And um, one of the things I noticed with was Mike right away is aquatic will be called aquatic profile. How you naturally set in the water, right? Most of us guys, we typically, you know, we're almost nine year age. Right here. Right, right, Mike. He floats like a butterfly on he just floats, right. I remember being so jealous, but it was so great to have, you know, Mike at that caliber, we've had very novice swimmers altered up to former Olympians, and you find how connected we are and how similar human patterns are there, whether you're just starting out in triathlon, just starting swimming all the way to a former Olympian, those human, those terrestrial impulses, those terrestrial patterns are there in all of us. And we work on those things, both mentally and physically to, you know, to get them into a better place than they were before regardless of the level. So that's what's so cool about so so now the only thing I'll do is Coach, you know, it's my it's my go to relief. It's for some people it's going something to miles for me, it's going coaching two hours, you know, on deck or just I just had a private lesson for and she says I just got this I just got this one student pass breathing or getting into that breathing without breaking posture and how happy they are, because they've turned off that that primal reactive brain, and now they're taking control and steering their own ship in the water. So this is what I love to do. And I'm happy to be part of your and honored to be part of your podcast with these wonderful people here.

Tom Regal:

Yeah, and and the great thing about the SoCal tri masters was the welcoming environment. Just because there was people who had never swam before in their entire lives to you know, Olympic swimmers we had such a wide breadth of swimmers and everybody was super supportive everybody else there was not this oh, we're in the fast lane, you're in the slow lane anything and the way you mingled us back and forth so we could learn off one another and kind of go through all of that just made this such a great learning environment it was just it the energy there was awesome because everyone came and wanted to learn we're always on we were always functioning with that and that was you know, your coaching style brought that with it. But also Jen was a huge cheerleader on this she's you know, you've you've coached as well your seven time was it a seven time all American at Bama at Alabama and and also you know, Olympic distance tries and you've done all this great stuff. You're, you're legit solid, like amazing swimmer badass on your own right and having you there As as helping coach everybody else, because one of the things that coach Stu would have us do is Coach one another. And that helps us visualize what we're actually seeing. And you get people who are very new, like trying to give Mike tips, right? Well, how's it look? Wow. I don't know. Mike, your head's a little high. Right? Yeah, sure. Right. You know, it was perfect, right? It looks great. But it was it was enabling us to actually engage with one another on a different level and look at different things and Jen you were a huge part of that, I mean, that you brought tons of energy to that class. And that was, that was awesome. So your give us more your background run through that?

Jen Davidson:

Well, my background, I'm from Florida, North Palm Beach, and I grew up swimming at our country club,

Tom Regal:

we won't hold that against you. Right.

Kenny Bailey<br>:

So it's not like a cow pond. So

Jen Davidson:

okay, and they will like the sport where they find their friends. And that's just where I found friends and just kind of went through but I had my first coach was all six lengths, right on backstroke, six lengths, left arm backstroke, six lengths, right arm freestyle, so drills, drills, drills. So I love that. And then my next coach that took me until I went off to college was pretty amazing in it. And what I kind of found, I think I almost instinctually knew to swim smarter, not harder. Like when streamlining really came in, and the dolphin kicks came in, I'm thinking, if you can streamline and dolphin kick and get, you know, a couple yards ahead of everybody else that's free, you know, just dive in the water correctly. And that doesn't cost you anything, it's not energy. So I had all that going into University of Alabama, and I was a backstroke, I've never been a great freestyler until Stuart. And just, you know, loved the swimming there. But then we Mike and I segwayed into triathlon, when we were about 27, 28, to about 30, something.

Mike Davidson:

When we first started riding our bikes, yeah, we started riding bikes

Jen Davidson:

on the sidewalk around. And like we were complete novices, like we knew how to swim, but that was it. And then even with the running, I was running, I figured out with a heart rate monitor because I couldn't keep up with people. And I found I had like exercise induced asthma due to mold and mildew. So the humidity just would kill me, I couldn't breathe. So I had to like, relearn all that stuff. But I've always been a thinking athlete, and I try to get that with people. And that's why I think I really connected with Stuart, because, you know, you go to his practice. First of all, when it's 60 degrees, 50 degrees at night, here we were in that 85 degree learning pool, which was wonderful. And that's like I was like I'm in because Mike and I were done competing, doing a Masters group, like you said, everybody in the first line, they find out your college swimmers what they find out as an Olympian. It's like, the competitiveness we were kind of done with it was more like, we just want to do what we want to do well, and the chips fall where they may now. And so meeting with Stuart, he was immediately got my free status. And I always dropped my elbow and I just been so horrible at it put a pool bouy on me and I don't move and he just picked up on one. Well, first, it was the head position because I was training, I would always look at the bubbles of the person in front of me to keep up. So the first thing we did was get that head straight down and made a huge difference. And then all these other little things. He's like, you're not you need to do this. I was like, I thought I was like, Yeah, but you can't get how many hundreds of 1000s or millions of strokes. It's incremental. And with the patience of Stuart patience of a saint I might add, because it is broken down the method that he teaches is broken down to where he would want me to you you demonstrate this and I was like, I don't think I can break it down to that much of a nitty gritty, I just seem to be able to put it together. But um, anyway, so we did the the triathlon and Mike encouraged me to do more like I did a half Ironman, which I didn't. My I was a drop dead sprinter is what you call it, like I could do a 50 was my event at Alabama. And that's where I was like six, but NC two A's and then seventh in the 100 and ninth in the 200. But anything more than three laps of training was like and I want to do this. So I my bucket list became, I wonder if I'm capable. I wonder if someone like me is capable of running a marathon or doing a half Ironman. And I really learned that when heart rate monitors came out, we put the heart rate monitors on to do it at your own pace forever, who whoever you are, go with what you can do and to really block everybody else out because the minute you start trying to keep up with a group run and you're not able, I have found out the hard way that I was always training anaerobically I don't think I ever trained aerobicly. And so it took a lot To learn how to do that, and then to do it correctly. So with the swimming with learning, the total immersion method was so much thinking, I tell people, if you come to our practice, it's not like we're going to go 10 x 100. And we're going to do all this speed work, it's going to be mentally tiring at the end, you're going to put the Tempo Trainer on, and you're going to have it going beep, beep, and you're going to get your arm in there. And then you're going to count your strokes. And then you're going to see if you're putting your hip for what is the arm goes in, and you're just like, you know, but it's been so incredibly helpful to go from. Like, we took that break, after swimming, then I did triathlons. And then actually what I found out what my calling was, I think was cycling, because we would go out on all these group rides. And I was always wondering, I'm gonna take my pull, I'm never gonna be one of those people at the dead at the back that they never take their pull, they can't on you. And that's probably because of the swimming background. And that was the personality of being a little driven.

Tom Regal:

So you'd always be just a little competitive.

Jen Davidson:

Well, it'd be like 10 Guys, like we had some really, really talented cyclists in South Florida. And that they were like, Hey, you should segue into cycling. And I was like, bike races? Oh, no. And I did those criteriums. And you know that. But then Mike convinced me to ask a team out of Tampa if I could, like, be on a team because I was trained doing it all by myself and just showing up at a race and you learn that, you know, criterions and stuff, you better be a part of a team. And I joined that team. And then Gosh, Mike encouraged me to go Olympic trials as you need to do Olympic trials in 1996. And I was like, You got to be a cat one rider, dude, I think they women started category four. And maybe it was a category two, and you had to learn how to do velodrome racing and do criteriums and do road race and do time trials you had to place you have to do all this. We were under this crunch to like qualify. And, and I did. So I went ahead and like why not? But when I was there on the starting line, I'm looking around these people you're reading and VeloNews magazine, like I showed not belong. That experience was quite amazing. So after years of finishing that, and then I think we when my son was born, I was 36. And the cycling......

Mike Davidson:

Coconut Grove criterium?

Jen Davidson:

Oh, yeah, I want to I won a road race.......

Tom Regal:

nice, legit.

Jen Davidson:

I didn't want to be in the mix. I was I'm five nine. So the girls you know, your, your, your climbers are these petite little girls are gonna do doo doo doo doo up the mountain. And then you have we had their sprinter and she was like a Mighty Mouse, she would get in there and you know, use those elbows and throw them and I was like, Ah, so I was like, I got the big bottom girls, it's like, just get on my feet. Well, I'll take you guys where you want. And I am out of here. And I was quite happy with that position. Because I'm like, I got enough accolades. I don't really care. But if I can help a team, this is like the coolest thing ever. So totally enjoyed that. But then once Jake was born, you know, out there on your bike, sometimes it's kind of dangerous, and people are going close to you just to be funny. And I thought, What am I doing? I'm a mom. So I stopped everything. Right ran to for weight control, because we still always have those, you know, eating habits of athletes and or terrible arthritic knees made me stop. And we, we went off of everything Mike and I gained a lot of weight. And I 17 years later, when I met Stuart, and live like five minutes from the pool, and went to that first practice, I was like, Ah, this is this is it. This is just, this is easy. It's fun, I have to think I can correct my stroke. And I tell people even out in the ocean, you know, take a focal point. Always a focal point I get that from Stuart. There's and sometimes I might have two or three focal points. But when you're beginning you take a focal point and focus on that. And you you any of us could give somebody a focal point. When we did the swimming stirs like you got to get out in the open water Jen and this was before Mike lived here. Background Mike was four and a half years not out here when I was here because our son is doing the acting and we just couldn't get our we couldn't get him out here. So I was trying to tell him about Stuart before he even moved out here. And I got a wet suit and it hung in my closet for a full year before he got me out in the ocean and it was in May. But I do remember the temperature that day. The ocean temperature is 58

Tom Regal:

chilly.......

Jen Davidson:

I know. I Hate cold water. But we did. And then I really let it go for a while and then there were some groups swims and then Tom and we would all go out and do those. And then during the pandemic, Mike just woke up when it was June of 2020 because we're going to swim in the ocean every day. I was like okay, And we just did. And that's just been amazing to take everything that Stuart's taught us, the pool is definitely different than the ocean or the lake, that kind of swimming. It is, I guess, Stuart, you could probably correct me. But I feel like there are other things, you know, currents and waves and chop and getting that high side arm up, and all those sorts of things. I was like, Whoa, this is a little and how you drift apart from people out in the, I don't know if that same in the lake, but you can start with somebody. And then by the time you take a breath and look at them, they're like, how they get all the way over there.

Tom Regal:

You still get a little bit of that waves and things like that. But I think that's where the and Stu, you can talk about some of the some of the sets and training that we did, where we change gears, right, we mix up sets, or we do a 75, where it's, you know, slow, medium, fast, and then back again, we go back and forth to getting used to switching gears like that. When you get into open water, you take all of that knowledge, and you put it together, because you're based on a wave or something coming through. That's where you have to shift gears now you have to, you know, short, short, the arm stroke a little bit just to get through the wave, and then you can get back in your stroke. And you can you can touch on maybe a little bit of that on on that transition out to open water.

Stuart McDougal:

Oh, yeah, sure. I mean, changing gears, as always, I mean, it's good for pool, open water early anything in what I find a lot of, you know, triathletes, even, you know, more experienced triathletes, they all swim it this one speed. And, you know, I mean, while that's good, I mean, you do have your comfortable zone that you fall into depending on your, on your distance, but it's good to mix it up. Right. And, you know, if you remember some of those sets that I have you guys swim, like really, really fast tempos. In other words, that the the stroke rate was really fast. And you guys are like, really, my ears are burning, you guys are hating on me. And then we'd come back, we come back up or slow back down. And you'd find that a lot of as we went down where certain, you know, stroke rates were very uncomfortable as you were going down the scale or getting faster and faster, we came back up, you know, those stroke rates that initially seem really fast suddenly weren't, you know, weren't they feeling? Well, I could maybe hold on to the stroke rate, you know, I can actually swim at this rate. And that is one is waking up those fast twitch muscles, right, we're always talking about fast twitch, you know, getting getting those circuits to fire quicker. And to you know, when you're swimming at those, those faster tempos, those, those weird moves that we ended up introducing in our stroke, you know, our little hand moves, and, you know, and stuff we do on the water, legs splays, they are not as pronounced because you don't have the time, you know, to, to, you know, to do those movements. So as a consequence, you're actually turning up those moments, that's much like I equate that to, I think they call it strides and running, you know, we do strides, that quick turnover. And it's not that you're going to be running a marathon at that pace, but it's actually trimming up your your stride. So taking out those add unnecessary movements. But it also helps to change gears. So if you're an open water, in certain cases, where it's really clean conditions, and what I mean by clean is that smooth ride, there's not a lot of swell, not a lot chop, you can kind of turn up your stroke rate and get up to a speed that you're very comfortable with. But then when it gets really choppy, he often you have to time, you know, you have to slow things down. Quite often that speed things up or slow it down to time yourself with the chops so you stay underneath in the surface rather than trying to swim over the chop you see a lot triathletes do and just end up getting turned upside down. Sometimes, you really learn how to really penetrate right through right below the chop. And I'm here with Bridge to Bridge Mike, we had some pretty bumpy conditions. And he he was a great example of just a torpedo, you know, going right on the surface and and timing his stroke with with the chop and it could be a little faster, but typically and kind of slowing things down. So doing that in the pool as great, you know, one for you know, physical and physiological, physiological reasons. But also, you haven't you haven't a range of gears that you can use in open water because you're not going to just swim at one stroke rate, you're going to be changing that rate, depending on what the conditions are the currents, you know, going left or right or pushing you in or pushing behind you kind of thing, or, you know, if they have chopped kind of diagonally, you know, how do you handle that you change gears so you can stay as low as possible. So doing that in a pool, in the open water. It's not only fun, it's engaging, right? But it's also training your body that it's not just a one speed only you don't have, you're not a Fixie, right on the water. You have. You have you know 11 gears to work with and you know you have your choice and you You've, you've swam and all of them and you get to pick which one is best.

Tom Regal:

Yeah, yeah. So then so then you start gearing towards the bridge to bridge swim. So we started heading towards that direction. So tell us tell us about the bridge bridge swim, and kind of the conditions and things that faces up in San Francisco Bay.

Stuart McDougal:

Oh, sure. I mean, Jen loves cold water. So I figured it would be a great way to start

Tom Regal:

her perfect spot for her to swim and yeah, right.

Stuart McDougal:

She would never get in the cold water, she was not going to get in cold. It wasn't that cold that day, I think was 64. But Bridge to Bridge is a it's a 10k, maybe a little more or a little less in distance. But we swim what we call at flood. Which means if you think of the San Francisco Bay, it's just that little opening compared to the gigantic bay that runs almost 60 miles, you know, from end to end, you know, in what they call the Bay Area's North Bay in the South Bay. So water comes in right through the Golden Gate Bridge. So it's like things move very fast. And so depends on tide. So flood is when you're moving from low tide and real low tide, and it starts now starts going into high tide. So we call the bay is starting to fill. And then so as we're starting to fill you're getting, it's like a river going in, you know, to the base. So you're actually getting your cycle. It's like, you know, riding your bike with a tailwind. It's really awesome. But you don't get initial tailwind, it's, uh, we started what they call Slack. So there's that area that time about 30 minutes, I think or so depending on the moon really, in the time of year, but in the summertime is generally about 30 minutes. So we jump off during slack. And then we ride out throughout the Golden Gate Bridge, and we start swimming towards Alcatraz. And then about, you know, about 20 minutes in, then it starts to, you know, starts to fill it, but it's not like it's full speed. So it takes a while to get up to speed. And by the time you know, we get around to Alcatraz, which is about I think about three miles in, it's getting close to you know, full flood or full speed, which is it can be anywhere from four to six knots. So from really from Alcatraz or aquatic park there or, you know, where people are most familiar with is Fisherman's Wharf, which is kind of right, that area. That's where you're swimming. That's where I get to swim. My 100 yard pace was like 48 seconds. My watch and I was like, Wow, man, I'm

Tom Regal:

cruising. So Mike's Mike's my average face, like is cooking, right? He's like, Mike's down to 20 for between four seconds,

Stuart McDougal:

pretty much. And so that last half, the last three miles distance wise, you're swimming pretty much at full speed, which is really fun. Because you know, how often you get to swim from one bridge to another? And yeah, it's it's it's a 10k but ends up being three and a half, four miles, you know, depending on but the sights are wonderful. And this last race to go was there was both Mike and Jen's first and Jen's first time in the bay, right? Yeah. First time swim in the San Fransisco bay. So really awesome. We had some pretty bumpy conditions, because some currents will come around, they collide. And you get this weird kind of this lateral chop, you know, it kind of throws you off. And that sort of sometimes swimmers will try to climb over it. Well, I know Mike was going right through even though I didn't see him, because Mike, he was 15 minutes. 15 minutes. That's 15 minutes ahead of the next swimmer. That's how fast

Jen Davidson:

He was 17 minutes......

Stuart McDougal:

what's that?

Tom Regal:

17 minutes?

Stuart McDougal:

or 17 minutes, 17 minutes. So I think it was the biggest lead of any prior race with WaterWorld swim that any swimmers had. And you know, it's just you know, it's a torpedo that posture that, that position that background of having those kind of, you know, that fluid stroke really sent him to, you know, like a missile. Um, and then, you know, I was closer to the mid pack or a little bit behind. Jen was like, I think you're a third third female in third person.

Jen Davidson:

I think 15th Overall 15th Overall,

Stuart McDougal:

but these are against summers that are all on a lot of young, a lot of young, very fast kids there, but they are all I would say I would call them San Francisco Bay, swimming veterans. I mean, they have done a lot because they're all they all live up there. Most of them live there. And so here comes Mike and they were like, Who's this guy, you know? But that's when you know, when you swim in the bay. You swim in relationship to the current you know, because you're not going to swim against you know, four knot current, you're gonna stay not gonna win. So it's really depending on the tides of when things happen. They have Of course Escape from Alcatraz which all triathletes upon familiar with. It's a great race. They swim from Alcatraz over to Crissy Field, which is about about a mile and a half away about a mile and a half, or maybe two miles due west of Fisherman's Wharf for about a mile from the Golden Gate Bridge. So it's this kind of big, kind of right hook. So they started slack and going across the bay, and then then what they call it, the, the current starts to ebb, which means now Bay is going from high tide to low tide. So now now it's a river going out of the bay, you know, 100 of the going favorite, so you don't get across the base. Or if you get across the bay quick enough, then you get a tailwind all the way in the finish. And it's about tune, it's about to 2.2 miles as the crow flies for Escape from Alcatraz. But with the current it's about, it's about a mile and a half swim might be a little bit shorter to painfully slow, faster current. So in the bay is really quite challenging because the current is so drastic, and it moves very quick between high and low tides. You really kind of have to time your swims based on which way the tide is going. Otherwise, you might find yourself, you know, ebbing out below the Golden Gate Bridge, and never find you again.

Tom Regal:

Eventually, you pop up on the shore. I know we did that one the year before. Mike, you and I did that one. You convinced me to jump off a perfectly good boat. Near near the island of Alcatraz, it was probably my best of open water swim and like literally almost almost barrel rolled several times with the chop that we had. It was really, really choppy. So I think we're all going to have to go up and Kenny, you should join us as well go up and do a 10k swim next summer.

Kenny Bailey<br>:

Go back we got a lot of work to do on that one.

Tom Regal:

Yeah. So so how did we How did you make that? What what did you do training wise? So leading up to doing this? When did you make the decision to go up because Stu's always like putting that in everybody's ears like we got to go out and we gotta go through we got to do so. So what was the timeline? Like how many months? Did you guys start prepping for this? And what what was the training that you're doing? Because you're swimming? You said every single day. And St and Santa Monica Bay right? What was what did that training look like? What? How did that how did that all come about?

Jen Davidson:

We had a few months that Stuart you told us about it. And then I just do whatever Mike tells us we're gonna do. He's like, you know, we started doing a mile. And like then we started doing two miles because I was like it's 25 minute drive over there. So two miles became nothing than three miles for me. Two days in a row three miles is hard for me Mike can just keep I'm like kind of you're like a cruise ship doesn't matter. The conditions are they can be wavy, choppy, calm, whatever. And you're just like I'm the dinghy like still trying to keep up so he be like, like three miles. That's a long way. If you count how many strokes cycles you do, like we only stopped at the turnaround. So continuous stroke cycles. It's a lot. So we would do three miles, maybe two days in a row, but I would get really tired. And then the third day we'd only do two and then Mike's like we we got to do a five miler, like, okay, but we're stopping for snacks. Like, we're solving for snacks, but I still would have to sometimes with him, and I'm so appreciative and it's so comforting to have, I need him next to me when I breathe, I would tell him I want to look at your face. I don't want to see your buoy. I don't want to see your feet. For me, it's very important to see his face or I feel like my own rhythm goes off. So he would very very good at just staying next to me. So I always say his stroke, stroke, breathe because I've read both sides. So stroke stroke, breathe, look at him strokes or breathe go that way. And then just to keep that and then stop for some snacks on the way and then sometimes I would just really have a hard time and he would just say Are you okay? And I'd be like Yeah, I'm okay. So we did he a couple days, we had to go separately. And that's when I was like, do whatever you want. I'm not going another five miler because supposedly according to Stuart, this 10k will be like a three mile swim. So I figured if I could do an hour and a half swimming which we were doing all the time on three miles, I could do the 10k

Tom Regal:

That's one of his Jedi mind tricks. It's really like a three mile you know that

Jen Davidson:

the Catalina Michael go, Okay, I'll go and I'm like, what, but he'll go three miles, four miles, five miles. It's just nothing but it takes a lot out of the average person. The bottom like, do you understand the body you have, like, do you don't get tired? It's very consistent. Like, you know, I might get tired and we might float another way or, you know, you feel Everyone's tired, but his consistent pace is just amazing. So I'm quite happy to have to try a little harder because it helps me to stay consistent, whereas I would be all over the place. You know, slow fast, I'm tired floating whens, it's gonna end?

Tom Regal:

Yeah. And that's certainly swimming with someone who's faster better than you is what drives you along, especially with the fact that Mike will will buffer back to just be that you always used to work, you want to be 10%. Better, right? And then you can keep track with that if you work way too, way to to your full fullest then, then you can't you can't keep up and you get discouraged. But if you can just stick that carrot out there just a little bit. And then you got something to pull along with Mike, you. You're fantastic doing that. I mean, and Mike leading up to this, you had hip replacement surgery, right?

Mike Davidson:

Yeah, well, I had a hip replacement in April, which, by the way, don't google and watch the YouTube surgery before you have you guys No, no, don't do that. Yeah. Which I did not bad idea. But no, I, I think, yeah, that was part of the reason but I can't remember when we entered. I didn't actually enter just to correct. The Jennifer. She did mention it, but she entered us because it's like, yeah, it's one of the things you talked about was like, I wasn't really keen on someone. Bridge to Bridge. I thought I'd just stick with that swim we did from Alcatraz because that was that was actually it's really, really choppy swin. Tom, that one we did that was one of the choppy ocean swims over being at the It was really choppy.

Tom Regal:

But not saying it was like, a hell of a choppy swim is like No, Mike is saying that too. So like,

Mike Davidson:

yeah, that race we came in. And that was with swimming beside another gentleman coming in to the you know, words come into the little area with a train there off the, the across the San Francisco club area. Yeah. And we were like, just like came in and we kind of like, look at each other, like just slugging it out. And I just remember, we kind of look at each other. I'm like, Man, I'm gonna give this one more go. And one more push. Yes, you know, balls to the walls. And if it doesn't work, this guy could have it, I'm done. I'm just shutting down, you know? And I did, I did one more push. And he just faulted. I'm like, Ah, thank you to kind of sort of coasting. Yeah, cuz I was like, just once. Yeah, I said, I'll serve and hang on, hang on, as long as you can. It was just a lucky swung, but But getting back to the preparation. Um, yeah, I don't remember me actually entering us. But what we did for the training was the nice thing about ocean swimming. And it, I think it's just a more of a mind thing. Because every day that conditions are different. And so you can relate the train, you really don't have to do anything, I just go out there to try to relax. And I think anyone that's trying to get into any type of swimming event is in the pool, because it's that natural flight where you tighten up in the water, whether you're in a pool, or ocean or river or whatever. So if the relaxation and it's almost like meditation, for me, at least I've been treating it like that. And I just feel like it's like a mind cleanse. And when I go out there, and I just chug along. And you know, I, you know, I lost my dad a couple of years ago, and I think about all the good time so I just really try to make it a you know, a therapeutical type of event, you know, and it's Yeah, so if it's like a currents you got currents involved you might push one way. You know, some days Jennifer's like she's very modest. She's, it's a little bit you can tell you can feel when someone's kind of pushing a little bit or, you know, trying to push a little bit. Well, that was that was later on. That's actually a funny story too. Because we have friends are more Jennifer's good friends, and she just got to visit with from college days way back when in the 80s. We communicate with her husband, I've become friendly with which he went the same school we did to Alabama. And he anyway, he asked a question about all you guys use fins? And we never thought about it. And we'd looked at each other we sent a little video, it's like the look you get when someone says you use fins. It's like there's no way we would use fins. So then we thought about the next day. It's not a bad idea. So, you know, it says sort of willing to try anything. So again, slip fins on and it was actually a really good idea. And you know, just again, it's another thing for anyone wanting to getting involved and into something like that. It just it's another thing it helped the fins they make these days to these. There's a couple of brands that make the same type of fin kind of reminds me of America's Cup sailing with the winged keel. The fins are designed so they really they keep you on again talking about what Coach Stewart's doing better alignment, keeping in line keeping that you know, keeping that body on the rails. So you're going being relaxed, but going straight on the track. You know, you don't want to be moving all over the place. These fins actually help and you don't have to use them. They used to sort of float back there and they actually can help would be a technique. But yeah, that was kind of funny too. And that's again, just willing to try things out, in relax, but as far as the preparation, you know, I always like to whether, you know, I want to make it and not, you know, I want to make it put it that way I don't want to be, you know, washed in a shore. So I do did like to go like a five mile swim. And so I didn't, I went out and did a couple of those. But I did We did enjoy remember James Jen? we met this gentleman, James English gentleman, he works in the industry out in LA and he's, you know, don't want to get into that. But it's super, super nice guy. And he would meet us every morning to have a cup of tea and always have a cup of tea afterwards. And we are so enjoyed his company and we go out and would swim you know, at that speed too. And again, that was another example of changing it up and where you can swim with all, you know, all levels of swimmers. So as far as the preparation, it was more just like letting the sort of being one with nature and trying to you know, work with what you had, you know, you've got the ocean to get out through the back of the back of the waves. And Santa Monica, you know, Southern California, you can get a pretty nice swell, sometimes not like Nazare, but you get it, you know, three or four foot wave. And that doesn't sound very high. But that's quite a big wave. Especially if they're barreling on you, you know, so you got it, you got to be a little bit careful. But again, you see, you've got that getting out of the getting out through the break, coming back and through the break. So you're getting a workout, really, without even thinking too much about it, you know, sometimes it's survival just getting out. So you are getting a duck and down and you're getting getting a workout that way. So yeah, the preparation is very, is very, very relaxed versus, you know, if you're getting ready for an Ironman, you know, the ultra distance ones you do Tom, you know, it's a little bit more specific. But and that's part of the reason why I like it, because it's just such a relaxing, it's a more of a mind thing to do with me, you know, and then and with Jennifer too, I think, you know, as it alluded to Jen is my oxygen, so to speak, so to the to the hydrogen now

Jen Davidson:

taught us is like I don't use the fins, I say I don't use the fins, I do let them drag behind me. But for my body position, it just seemed to put me high up and I would do a little learning from Mike, I would go underneath and like what is he doing, he never even kicks and I would see his hips naturally go like this, you know, swivel from side to side. And he watched me because yeah, you don't move your hips. And you know, Stuart, you talk about that hip driven stroke. And they talk about it since I was a kid, but like no one shows you how to do it. So you know, you try to thrust that hip forward, and the end, your kick will just kind of follow with one little thing. So I felt like the fins gave me a even higher position even with the full wetsuit on with those fins gave me that ability to so that Mike could swim at a very nice cruisy pace. And that I didn't I hated to feel like I was slowing them down. So we did meet with James, I would slow down to swim with James and he was quite a bit slower than me. And Mike would go off on his own. But through Stuart and learning from him, I was able to give James some focal points, which helped him tremendously got him from him being like, I can't go too slow, because it's so cold to hey, I'm actually enjoying the swimming swimming next to James. And then he had to get a knee replacement the week before Mike got a hip replacement and

Stuart McDougal:

keep that between us......(laughing)

Kenny Bailey<br>:

And you mentioned twice now on on focal points. And I just wanted to kind of dive in for a little bit when you when you say or Stu, or you know what, what do you mean by that? What what specifically....?

Jen Davidson:

Stuart gives us a lot to think about when we're swimming. So you become a thinking swimmer. So for me, I would take very long breaths, and I kind of attribute that to swimming in that humidity and having that exercise induced asthma, I would take a breath and it's always like, I would always like I'm breathing through a straw. So I think in swimming, I was always taking a very long breath. And Stuart says we got to do these quick breaths and get your face back in the water before your hand starts to pull. Anybody can slow down to think. I don't know a lot of people probably do it correctly, but it has taken me years to master that one little detail. And when you're out in the open water and you are in choppy water I was like this is why he wants us to take a quick breath. Because if you take a long breath, you're going to get hammered with all that water, which isn't fun to swallow. So I've kind of the focal point for me is swim next to Mike and first of all be relaxed but like stay next to him. Don't let them drift too far. Don't go too slow. And my focal point today is take your breath get your face back in quickly before I let that lead arm pull. That's just one focal point and then the hips are the other things that really helped me. I mean, Mike actually went under the water and took my hips and just did a nice, kind of a hard, turned my hips. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna, now I see I'm gonna turn my hip that drives my arm a little further, its distance per stroke, harder, not harder, take less strokes, and it's easier, and you go faster. So, there's a few, but every time I go out there, I know, once I start swimming, I figure out what am I going to work on today? Maybe to me, just one thing. So if I looked at your stroke, and I can, and actually, in Stuart's taught me so much, but I can see something quickly that I'll be like, I could probably tell him this one focal point. And that would change him if he would focus on it, you know, you'd be a changed

Kenny Bailey<br>:

Stu is that is that part of that? I mean, swimmer. obviously, part of it is to get better at the swim is the other part of it. Because there's this it's amazing to see the amount of tension that you guys more than notice more than I do to go from a pool swim to an open water swim you I personally, like open water better, because you can get into a rhythm. I mean, there's legions of people that absolutely freak out. Stuart, is that is the focal point kind of help, like focus your mind on something else? Besides the whole freakout motion? Or where do you see that breakdown occur between that that perfectly fine swimmer in the in the pool, and all of a sudden? They're, they're really kind of in that open water? Is it just because there's just too much it's just because a current? And because of waves? Because where do you see that kind of? And how can they kind of break through that

Stuart McDougal:

it's really all above, you know, and what the focal point I mean, it's, it's a, it's kind of shutting out the environment. And, you know, a focal point could also be thought of as a very specific cue, you know, like, Jen was saying, you know, making your breath early, and get it quick. So you stay in posture, while you swim, it could be something as simple as keeping your fingers soft, you know, not tighten them up, right, no tension, just holding your finger soft, keeping your head in line with your spine, just thinking about that not trying to manage, you know, the whole process, because if you think about freestyle, or really any stroke, it's like ballet, you know, I mean, that's a very complex set of movements. And if you try to manage all of them, and then throw in the environment, you know, then the primal brain takes over, right, the reactive mindset, you know, the fight or flight, and then suddenly your body collapses, you get all this tension, you start to hyperventilate, you know, the environment has now taken over, and now your body's on autopilot, trying to survive. And this is where I see like a tri, especially they're going in the first buoy, you see about 10% of swimmers, they're pretty much in survival mode, they're your vertical, you know, thank God for wetsuits, it can float, but they're recovering because the environment took over primal impulses took over, you know, and then you know, it takes a while to recover from that and even happens to me occasionally, we're all inhale some water and suddenly that fight or flight you know, will take over it's much like you know, I think a primal impulses you know, if you're walking along or you're running a marathon, and you know, you get a little tired or something and then suddenly you trip, right. And your your, your mind your brain goes into autopilot says I am going to protect you and your hands and feet will go out to brace for impact without you consciously doing it. And that's what I see. With a lot of swimmers especially going from that nice calm pool to the open water suddenly they're getting pushed around, right? They haven't felt that it's like someone if you if you're running down a crowd and someone was kind of shoving you can still stay up, you know, upright or you just trip right? So you learn how to it's the most difficult thing for I'd say this is just humans as whether you're just starting swimming, or even you know a former Olympian is that there's those points that your primal brain is going to take over and you have to know when that happens and have cues are what Jen talked about focus points to get you back into something very specific to turn that primal fight or flight brain off to get you as Mike noted into that kind of Zen kind of relaxed state Yeah, I relaxed it not that you're a bowl of jelly but that's you are not tense from your your primal brain taking over and you want to move it to the conscious part I call it the the operational versus the creative is kind of entertainment industry. You know, the operation is always trying to take over the creative you got to make more money and the creator has to push back say wait a minute, I gotta have time to develop right? And that's kind of the creative mind saying wait a minute. I'm in control here not you because if I if I allow the fight or flight to take over, the swimmer starts To sink, and the more you start to sink, the tensor you get, and the more those survival mechanisms turn on. And once that happens, oh, man, it's really hard to get up off of that edge. And when I normally tell swimmers, especially novice swimmers, or even, you know, intermediate or above, if they get into that state where they got kicked, and suddenly, you know, there's everything's tensing up and your whole body's collapsing, get on your back, and just relax, put your arms out, let your head just hang or float in the water, recover physically and recover emotionally. Because that emotional part is the reactive brain, the primal brain, trying to take over telling the conscious brain, you don't know what you're doing, I'm going to save you. And so there's always kind of that struggle, now you have to have both of them, right, you have to have the reactive brain, you have to have the conscious brain working together. But not one, overwhelming the other, which is usually the reactive brain, that's what happens in open water is that environment changes, you get swimmers banging into you that you've never happened, it's never happened to you before in the pool unless it got really crowded. And then suddenly, the body collapses. And now you're in distress mode. And that's hard to come back from the edge. You know, when when that happens? So in the pool, you know, what we will do we try to pull lanes out sometimes, I mean, that was kind of fun, we pulled lanes out. And so in big groups, you know, to where you're really, you're close and bumping into one another. And then suddenly he's like, Okay, well, this is just kind of fun. You know, I kind of joined this, I don't have to have, you know, my own space, I could swim in a very small space and bump into somebody, every once in a while. And because now I know what to do. So putting yourself in those situations in the pool as best you can. It's also very, very helpful to

Kenny Bailey<br>:

Yeah. And it seems like there's a mindset, I mean, like Mike, what you were talking about, you're able to make it rather than being an obstacle on waves or an obstacle on current, you turned it into Oh, this is going to be a different day. So it's, it's it actually is fighting boredom rather than, rather than oh my gosh, I've got chop, I've got swell, what am I going to do? And that's, that's an easy thing for your brain to kind of flip into, it seems like you're able to go, okay, I get something different today, it's not just going to be a calm day to day I get I get to, you know, I get something to think about, I guess, but that'd be a was that hard for you to do? Or just because you grew up your, your?

Mike Davidson:

Well, you know, when you've done it, like Jennifer and I for so long and like competitive swimmers, you do a lot of just intuitively, you know, it's just, it's because it's like anything, you do enough repetition, you know, whether it's right or wrong, you know, you, you do it, but I'm not. And I'd like you still, you know, I'm think I'm just trying to think about basically someone that's just trying to get into swimming, and or, you know, maybe thinking about getting in the ocean. And I think that yeah, it's relaxed, but then Stuart mentioned to and then gentleman is talking about that quick breath. And not to get too technical. But the reason is, it's you get that quick break, you want to get back, it's also you don't want to take water and talking about the flight a couple of times on this bridge to bridge, because I was you know, I had the red line going, I was wasn't, you know, wasn't coasting. And a couple of times, you know, if I had gotten a mouthful of water would have would have stopped me in my tracks. So you want to take that. But the other reason to you take that quick breath, you want to get you always want to be in line. So, you know, like, you don't want to hit up, you don't want your head, you know, after your body. It's you're relaxed. But again, it's that I always, you know, Stuart talks about posture. And it's, it's correct. And I try to simplify it even more. For me, I'm always thinking about going down like train tracks. So I'm always trying to go on train tracks. So, you know, your spine wants to be straight, you always want to be in that sort of rectangle, not a rectangle, but you want to be thinking of your body, maybe as a rectangle. And so if your vessel your body is getting off, off kilter, right, it's, it's pretty much common sense you're going to create resistance, you're going to create drag. So if you're just learning on learning, or you want to do set, that's when the fins can really help the posture the alignment whatever word you want to use that you know you can bring in yourself the relaxation but yeah, you think about it, you want to be like you know, the nose of a one of the nuclear submarines that Australia's about to get or, you know, you want to have that nice straight line where you're dispersing the water up here, and you've got nothing else that's coming off hanging off, you know, no pilot fish hanging off you creating drag, you know, but yeah, it's it is it's really, I just, you know, I guess it's my age too, and where I'm at with, you go through different things in your life, that it's just, maybe the pandemic too, but yeah, I really treat it more as sort of a different different each day and this is sort of my time to sort of decompress and I think that's maybe more beneficial and trying to race someone you know, 30 years ago. That was like, you know, to just take each day Do what you can do.

Stuart McDougal:

Hey Jen, posture is? posture.......

Kenny Bailey<br>:

Yeah

Jen Davidson:

is as posture does I don't know...(laughing)

Stuart McDougal:

cash is....?

Tom Regal:

king!

Kenny Bailey<br>:

There you go.

Stuart McDougal:

Posture IS KING. Posture is king.

Kenny Bailey<br>:

Yeah, But what's amazing though is Jen you I mean, with your with your resume. It's ridiculously you know impressive yet Mike, you know, you said I had to have Mike swim underneath me to get that feeling of what the hips because what's fascinating is when Tom and I first started working together, he was like you're crossing your arms. I'm like, No, I'm not. He's like, No, you're crossing your arms. I'm like, I'm not, and he shows me the video. I'm like, Oh, okay. No, and it's that.

Jen Davidson:

Yes.

Kenny Bailey<br>:

It's a hard thing that you've

Jen Davidson:

been doing it for so long. You've been swimming? Yeah, I've been doing that. So it's very, it's changes are very incremental. Like I said, it took me four years of Stu and I've been swimming for most of my life. Not a good freestyle, or but I mean, how much freestyle we spent a lot of freestyle in practices. But to make those small changes, was a focusing and paying attention to make those changes. So if you're still you're probably not crossing anymore, but you're probably still a little bit too far in.

Kenny Bailey<br>:

Oh, absolutely. Yes, sir.

Tom Regal:

He's doing much better.

Jen Davidson:

Yeah I mean, Stuart, you would agree, you're going to feel like you're swimming out towards the lane lines, like you're required. And that's when you're going to be correct. And then, you know, you guys are lucky if you're filming it, or you got to go pro or something like that is like just huge, because we don't can't see much in the ocean. So I'm like, you know, I don't know what I'm doing here. And then you get in the pool. And you see, it's like, oh my gosh, I thought I corrected that. You're not

Tom Regal:

Yeah. And Jen, you you were you were more of a sprinter. You were all about speed and and what it was backstroke and butterfly?

Jen Davidson:

Mostly backstroke And for me, speed is like, anybody's the gun goes off, and I'm, the body's just going to react and I'm going to go, but I had to learn to really turn everything off. Stuart taught me how to turn everything off. And, you know, even when he would maybe say we're gonna do sprints at practice, you wanted to take 12 strokes a lap? Not 20. You know?

Tom Regal:

Would you would you say that and this is for all three of you. Would you say that if you're doing a sprint race, any imperfections in your stroke and in your posture, you can you kind of, you can kind of get away with a little bit because you can overpower in certain aspects. And then once you start doing longer distance, endurance kind of things that that's where it would show or is that completely wrong?

Jen Davidson:

races like the the sprint triathlons, if you can pay attention to the detail, and you can get be smarter about your training about fixing up your, your swim, stroke, your cycle stroke, like doing the one legged prac repeats on your bicycle, I mean, you're going to be way more efficient on that 10 mile bike ride than you were if you were just pedaling. And there's a lot of athletes out there like myself that we were really good athletes or Topping our, you know, strokes or whatever. But like, there's still a lot of faults, I had a lot of faults in that freestyle that I would have never corrected if I didn't meet Stuart, but you have to be willing, a lot of people that are decent. I don't know that they're willing to listen. And I remember telling Mike, I really want you to come to swim practice. And Mike just finished a stint coaching distance swimmers at the University of Alabama A few years ago. So I was like, and just I know you'll know how to coach and don't Don't be a jerk, I really liked this guy and like,

Tom Regal:

Don't ruin it for me!

Jen Davidson:

You obviously can pick something in this book because he couldn't he went swimming my shoulders hurt.... then Stuart was able to give them a couple of minor changes that he's swimming pain free. He's never swum pain free before, but he had to be willing to listen at first or when you go to your practices from those of us that are coming from? Well, I mean, we're in our 50s but college programming and teaching really competitive stuff to see it broken down that much. It's very even Mike. He was like, What are we doing? I'm like, I know he's breaking it down to the point. This is a complicated stroke. But if you accept it, what the coach is telling you and think about it and make the correction in any kind of Sprint thing, you're going to be that much better minutes.

Tom Regal:

Yes. Yeah,

Mike Davidson:

you know, I think coach will the coach alluded to earlier but making the changes. So it's just, it's just not easy. You know what you when you think of, even if you've been giving someone you know, six months, you think of how many strokes you've done. And if you're doing it incorrectly, it just gets embedded in your, you know, your brain. So to make a change, it's just, it's, it's really, really tough. It's hard, you know, I mean, it's not will change or anything like that. But if you had to make a change, you've really got to, you know, obviously, have a good coach, listen, and then just try not to be get frustrated, you will but try not to get frustrated. And it's just little little changes. And just personally Yeah, one of the things that coach, you know, helped me was, you know, I did, I felt like I was putting my, my hands out to the corners of the pool, you know, and, and I probably have gone back regress back to how I used to some a little bit, but that's talking about, you know, when we're going out and doing talking Jennifer's doing about focal points earlier, that's one of the ones I do try to focus on, I try to, you know, I'm trying to push feel like I'm pushing out, I'm probably not. And the other thing is, I had this deal where to lift my elbow, you know, and I try to try to push down now. And so yeah, this is a little things, you know, but it's just not, it's not easy. So don't, you know, for people that are getting get frustrated, that's that's to be expected, you know, you just got to kind of hang in there. And, you know, just little increment changes, but it takes about three months, I think, is basically a good 90 days, if you're just trying to subtly make a change. It's just not, it doesn't happen overnight.

Jen Davidson:

And that you're hard to let go of your ego. So if you're a triathlete, everyone's got their first swim practice. And then, I mean, take yourself out of lane two, and go swimming lane four or five and correct them forever. Exactly. People are, like, if I was a runner, and you watch me run, and you just gave me one tidbit, like Jennifer, relax your shoulders and let your arms go? Well, and then okay, we're gonna go 10, four hundreds around the track. Yeah, well, I have to be smart enough to be like, You know what, maybe I'll go on a swim run with this group, it's going to I'm going to go a little slower, because I really want to relax my shoulders, but a lot of people, and I think that's want to take the time. Yeah, I

Tom Regal:

think they also find a lot of these masters programs, right, where they want to get, you know, called, you know, late onset swimmer. Where they find a master's program, they get in there, and they're just throwing up sets, and they're just hammering this stuff. And, and so many people hear about, there's like, oh, this master's program, I don't really like it. So I didn't want to do it. I want to do it. And and I can tell you, when when Stu was telling me about the master's program, I was just kind of like I was reluctant, because I don't, I don't do well in that atmosphere. If I get into that thing, where it's just all ego based, and here's, here's your set, and start hammering it out. And it's like everyone's watching to see who's fast or whatever. And moving up in the lanes. And that's, I just don't like that at all. But the way the way Stu's coaching us, was completely different. And he kept it. He kept us on track, but making it fun, but you know, allowing us to kind of get into that mode. And then just like, all of us thrive in that situation was like, boom, like,

Jen Davidson:

day by day, on race day, and I knew the people that would come to try out his program that wouldn't come back. And they were people who were highschool swimmers, maybe and they were pretty decent. But they were thinking they were going to come in and we're going to do these, you know, set after set after set. And yet, I because they would maybe race me and I'm lke I am so not here to race anybody thinking I'm tired mentally at the end of a proper practice. You're tired mentally, and you're just give me time. And then yeah, a couple of people, they went over to a different team because they wanted to work harder. But then I like.

Tom Regal:

Exactly. And they're like, well, we only did 2000 yards tonight, right? We only did I need to get more I need to get more Yeah, we only did 1500 Now, but But 1500 of focused yards is is way better than doing 3000 yards of crap. You know, form.

Jen Davidson:

discipline cycling or running the train smarter, not harder. The The world needs to listen to Yeah,

Tom Regal:

yeah. So what would you what would your advice be to, to new swimmers? Call them the delayed onset, you know, beginner swimmers that want to that want to get into this thing. If they're looking for a master's program or what they're, what they're doing what? What advice would you give them?

Jen Davidson:

I would still say go and show up. Talk to the coach and let a little bit of the maybe if you're brand new, you don't have an ego about swimming's. You don't know much about anything but go to those slow lanes and stay in them longer than you want to and ask the coach to come and give you some stroke correction because they're most coaches probably aren't giving stroke corrections When I go home in Florida, my coach that coached me when I was 12. He's still coaching. I go up to see him at the 6am Masters workout. I'm like, coach, like you tell us to do 10 One hundreds and nobody stops, he goes, add No, listen to me. And so nobody wants to listen t because I stop, I just give them a set, and everybody pushes off and does their own thing. But if I try to give them a stroke correction, they don't do it. So my thing is, is talk to that person, like join a team, join a Masters Club, but show up, have a conversation and then gets a little bit of stroke correction, and stay in those easy lanes until you're like, you know, moving along and you feel like you're progressing. But don't do an incorrect stroke. And go into a hard set. It's just silly.

Tom Regal:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Coach, what do you what do you what's your advice? And and I think we're getting close to wrapping up on time. So what else? What advice would you give to, to a new swimmer coming through, I mean, certainly to check out the master's program. And if you don't like it, don't feel like you have to stick with it. I mean, move on and find another one. There's, there's, there's a lot more of them. Certainly popping up out there.

Stuart McDougal:

I just adding to Jen. I mean, I think it's good to find a program. And you know, you can make it your own. I mean, it's really your own practice. I mean, you don't want to deviate and make yourself stand out from the group, if they're doing, you know, a certain set of sets, like Jen says, you can always go to the slower lane and work on something like if I'm working on breathing only or, you know, my cues are getting the head back in, you know, keeping my body long hold posture, those are my three cues, I'm gonna do that in a slower light, you know, and do the same sets. If they break out, if they break out the kickboards, you know, can I usually have an alternative, you know, work without the kickboard, really just kicking in posture, and then coming up for breath. And then in that holding the board above your head or putting the board below your, you know, below your, you know, your stomach or your or your chest in and then talk to coach, you know, some coaches are really, you know, I'd say, typically, they're training, training swimmers, how they were trained. And I don't want to say one's wrong ones, right. But that's just, you know, it's working for them, they're going to continue with that. And, you know, just mentally coaching, I'm working on changing my stroke. And, and some things are very awkward, so I have to slow it down a little bit. You know, and if you see me in a slower lane, this is probably why. So, I'd say keeping that communication open, and letting the coach know what your what your intentions are, and that you want to be with the group because the group does kind of keep me honest. Right. And a group is camaraderie, and group is it's fun. And you know, I think a little competition is always good, just not that it becomes the sole thing and a Masters which I think often happens especially in the faster lanes, it's like, it's nothing but a race for hour and a half right. And then that's just going to imprint things in your comfort zone, which may be incorrect and may be hurting your shoulders, it may be you know, bend in posture, this kind of thing. So, um, I'd say join a group and you can always find a way to fit in and there's different ways that you can fit in without making a big competitive March no through the whole practice and making it just like Oh, I hate this, you know, you'll find a way to make it work for each person or each person will find a way to make it work just keep the communication open.

Tom Regal:

Yeah, and I would say like I I never enjoyed the swim portion of anything. And and when I got involved with the with with your Master's class and got through I was at a point where my swimming was so horrible. I was going I was regressing I was going backwards I had a horrible swim it at Honu 70.3 Where I probably could be drowned came in dead last in a swim like I was out there forever. And and you just broke this stroke down to where we got back to just basic Superman glide, we're just floating like certainly broken all the way down. That was hard for me to back down like that. But I reached rock bottom pretty much so I had no I had nowhere else to go but up from that point on but it was it was certainly taking the time and resetting my expectations to say hey, this is this is where it needs to be I need to really put the time and effort and like Mike said, Just Just keep working on it and try not to overwhelm yourself with all the all the issues just break the focal points down to one or two at a time and just kind of build that foundation up. And I've tried to you know, put that into my coaching as well. So, it's

Stuart McDougal:

like, Kenny are you in the Masters at all?

Kenny Bailey<br>:

I'm not.

Stuart McDougal:

And you know, it's like good while you're learning. You know, when you're working with a coach and you're You're changing your movement patterns, from really terrestrial patterns to more of an aquatic pattern that works better in an aquatic environment is not to do that in a master's environment, because you're going to get kind of caught up in that environment anyways, you know, get those patterns to the point where they're more natural, you know, they don't feel like oh my god, this is not how you swim. This is so awkward, because anything, anything that you're changing any movement patterns in any sport, if you're, if you're changing a position different from what you've been doing it, it's going to feel very awkward, and awkward is good, as long as it's not painful. So get past that awkwardness, get those patterns kind of honed in, you know, a little bit really connected, and then then that'll be a good time to start, you know, going into a master's and, and continuing in that mindset. So changing, like Mike said, and Jen said when they were they just treated, you know, when they're just more and more, you know, and young on some teams and stuff, you know, and from young kids all the way through college, to being more mindful of what you're doing, but not managing the whole process. And then you feel that level of I feel for I really feel comfortable now in this new position. Now I can I can start to extend the time and and the distance. And that would be a good time to kind of think about going into a Masters not every day, but maybe twice a week, maybe then three times a week. And then kind of you know slowly breeze in that way. And I think that's very helpful for also. And you know, for novice swimmers, I was gonna set postures king and Jen noted, fins. fins are great, not for propulsion, not to help you move, which a lot of swimmers use them to move is to really make the body longer all the way through the toes. And what the fins do is they help you point your toes. So you know, point your toes like a ballerina. You like learn tippy toes. When you point your toes, you engage your hip flexors, you engage your hip flexors, you engage your glutes, you engage your hip flexors, the glutes, now, the hips, the pelvis is taking over. And now the pelvis is in charge. And remember, what was my mantra a couple years ago, power from the power from the pelvis

Tom Regal:

or from the pelvis,

Kenny Bailey<br>:

I can see the T shirts now. Yeah,

Stuart McDougal:

the fins make it longer. They get you to point your feet where you know, most swimmers will be cycling in the water, use these dorsi flexed feet and be cycling or running in the water. Long bodies, long legs, pointed toes really compact kick. The fins really help in aiding posture all the way through the toes and engaging those hip flexors. That is where the power is at.

Tom Regal:

Cool. Awesome. Well, I know Coach, you've got a you've got to jump off. Any final words from everybody? As we wrap up, I want to thank you all for being here. I mean, I think this is a great, great conversation I love I loved I miss you guys. I really do. I love swimming with you. And being around you such great energy and and all that just any any final words as we wrap up and, and head off.

Jen Davidson:

I just say keep it fun, keep it relaxed. If you find a partner person that you run with, or you cycle with, or you swim with that, like what Stuart taught us critique each other. I learned something from Roger holtzberg, who's not a strong swimmer, but he told me something and I was like, Oh, he's right, this is something I need to focus on. But most people if you if you're with somebody who's better than you, you're tend to maybe not want to but I'm telling you, even Mike had changes to make in the stroke. So everybody if you can have someone to train with, it's open to critique or just a little helpful hint. I say go for it.

Stuart McDougal:

Yeah. Like, you know, in our practice, you know, it was there wasn't one coach on deck, you know, I had, I should say one coach, there was one coach on deck maybe sometimes even I had, you know, 15, 20 coaches in the water, because they were giving each other there's a peer to peer kind of review you know, there's a you know, your head start to come up, you know, your breath is a little late, you know, you're you're you're laying flat on those kind of just simple cues to remind you to get back to that you're going back to that comfort zone to get back to that zone that is more aquatic friendly and streamline ours really

Jen Davidson:

our to do that. And feel bad if I was gonna pull on Tom's leg to say, Hey, Tom, you're like, that was the right arm, he's not doing something right. And you would not take offense at it. Like none of us would take offense. So once you can foster that environment, I think it just opens everybody up to getting a little bit better. That's huge.

Tom Regal:

And that's that's a, you know, a testament to the coach Stu because that that was the environment that he built. And we just like I said, we thrived in that. And my goal is out here is to find a pool where I can start a program similar to that. That's my goal. I just need to find the right place and build. I know I have two or three athletes that I'm coaching now, that would would thrive in that same environment. So that's, that's been a goal of mine to continue that on. So Kenny,

Mike Davidson:

Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Kenny. Great meeting. Appreciate it.

Tom Regal:

Yeah, I have loved having you guys on and learned so much from you really appreciate it. To everybody out there who's listening. Please your comments and feedback is, is is important to us. Giving us a you know, thumbs up five stars, all that good stuff helps the algorithms and helps people find this podcast and certainly your feedback kind of steers this on the guests and things and subjects you want to talk about. So thanks, everybody. Really appreciate everybody's time and we'll catch on the next one.